TOPIC:

Unnaked Patient
26/08/2009 20:58:09 »

As my name indicates, I am merely just another patient, not a vascular scientist. Just stumbled upon this website while doing some web research on varicose veins. Does anyone have experience with double tilted beds, i.e., sleeping on belly with feet low towards one end of the bed and head lowered towards the other end of the bed? Or else, sleeping in supine position? Or would a double tilt be counter-indicative for problem veins located above the heart, as in shoulders, neck or temples?

Professor Zamboni et al and Dr Franz Shelling are pioneers working on abnormal jugular and cerebrospinal veins that are swollen or varicose. Zamboni's paper on chronic cerebrospinal venous insufficiency in 100% of patients with multiple sclerosis is attracting a great deal of attention with regards to a stent surgical approach to alter the blockage and improve circulation which is thought to be causing a reflux or back flow of blood into the brain that is responsible for the plaques found in ms.

Inclined Therapy has already been shown to positively affect the bodily functions in several neurological conditions, including ms. Over a minimum of 4 months avoiding sleeping on a flat bed. Based on 15 years of research and independent reports from people trying I.T. it appears that the circulation improves in many cases without the need for surgery, which is the point being made in this thread about varicose veins and oedema no requiring surgery, which incidentally is destined to require more surgery over the years.

So the track record for sleeping inclined as opposed to sleeping flat is looking pretty conclusive. www.thisisms.com/ftopic-6755-days0-orderasc-120.html

That said, experimenting with posture to target individual veins has been done for many years raising the legs and upper torso, bending the body in the middle as is the case with most electrically adjustable beds.

The problem with this approach is that the spine is continually under compression and so is the soft tissue under the pelvis, increasing the risk of pressure sores and at best only providing temporary relief from varicose veins and oedema.

I have mentioned before that an exception to the generally beneficial relief found from I.T. is when a person has a collapsed vein, generally injury related the partially already closed vein could close further when the bed is inclined. Whether this would affect your particular problem either way can only be based upon your careful monitoring of the vein/veins in question over time to see what the outcome maybe.

Sleeping prone or supine or indeed on either side should only marginally alter the situation either way on an inclined bed, but could significantly alter the swelling situation while on a flat bed.

I hope I have understood your question and have offered some useful advice.

Andrew
Unnaked Patient
27/08/2009 07:28:29 »

Thanks, Andrew. Very helpful indeed. Blissfully unaware of what you advocate on this website, I have taken to sleeping in one of these huge, overstuffed leather reclining chairs, since about a month or so. This lowers my feet at an angle similar to what you propose. Good for me feet and legs, while at the same time avoiding pressure damage. My issue is, what about the parts of the body above the heart. Would sleeping with both, feet and head, down be a beneficial solution, like in:

/ head
feet /

This obviously at angles differently from what illustrated here. I am not the best artist, but willing to come up with any suitable construction.

Sleeping on a flat bed has become next to impossible for me, and your findings encourage me to actually discuss my situation with my physician. Unnaked as can be, have not done so yet, for fear he would recommend against my sleeping with feet lowered. I can now support my arguments for choice in sleeping arrangements with your research. The upper parts of my body still worry me.

I like your observations on salt concentrations in soil. We have irrigation zones where this occurs.

Thanks, again, Andrew. Best,


Dagmar.

Got it now, I think. Your posture suggestion is equivalent of hanging your legs over the edge of a bed while lowering the angle of the bed so you are tilted back.

According to the on gravity assisted circulation tracing the flow of solutes through the arteries in relation to posture and the location of the kidneys is very important in order to avoid salt build up and possible overload in the blood and lymphatic systems.

My wife and I experimented with head down posture and found that salts did not arrive in the urine in the same quantity as sleeping on an incline, in fact the urine produced over several days of sleeping head down at five degrees was near water density, while the urine produced on an inclined bed was much denser than urine produced sleeping horizontal or five degree head down, or that produced during normal daily activity, indicating that a detoxification of the whole body was taking place. With this in mind, replacing some of the excreted potassium salts might be prudent over many years.

People taking prescription drugs have found that they are either more effective sleeping inclined or their uptake is improved on an incline or that their body does not require quite as much as before the bed was tilted. This is mirrored by astronauts in micro-gravity (orbiting the Earth) where the drug dose requires increasing. Prolonged head down bed rest and prolonged flat bedrest are thought to mirror the detrimental effects of space travel and are used to induce many of the age related problems we will al eventually face, including muscular atrophy, osteporosis, arythmia, poor circulation, visual degeneration, etc etc.

In fact my wife and I both ended up with chronic diarrhoea as a result of head down tilt. This posture has also been used for obesity so is understood by the medical profession. I think The actor Marlon Brando was sleeping this way in order to lose weight.

With this in mind, I would be reluctant to sleep that way again for any length of time given the nausea, headache, diarrhoea and balance problems we experienced testing it.

If you do decide to go for it please let us know as I would be very interested to learn what happens.

Andrew

Unnaked Patient
27/08/2009 17:16:34 »

Thanks for your informative comments. Will simply raise the head end of my bed to the suggested incline, in the hope, that this will let me enjoy my bedroom again. I did some reading on what I found on this site on ITB an MS, not for myself, but mostly for my doctor, as we live in a region evidencing an unusually high concentration of MS sufferers, affecting also some members of my extended family.

A lifelong wearer of high heeled shoes, is there anyone else, who feels uncomfortable on flat feet? My heels go on the moment I step out of bed (or chair for the time being). A pair of cowhide sling back clunkers is my favourite at this time. 3 1/2" or 9 1/2 cm high, very chunky, solid heels.

My doctor will recommend flat shoes of course. Nevertheless, I will have to unnake myself a bit and finally discuss this issue with him, to see what else can be done. At the medical clinic where I go, we some pretty progressive practitioners of medicine.

Thanks, again, Andrew. Best,

Dagmar.
Unnaked Patient
28/08/2009 23:41:41 »

Hi Andrew:

It's a go. Will start experimenting with a suitable structure tonight, plus perhaps get some foam padding for my mattress. They advertise memory foam a lot here. Will see. If it can be arranged, my doc has agreed to take the before and after pictures. I just felt that this would provide more credibility than pictures taken by a medically unscientific, unnaked sufferer. Be patient, four weeks you all say.

Thanks again. Best,


Dagmar.

P.S. Although I asked my doctor specifically to take a good look at my feet while standing barefoot on the floor, high heels were never mentioned. Seems they are a 'no issue'.

Hi Dagmar and a big thankyou for joining our little experiment with posture for varicose veins and oedema.

Having the doctor take the photographs is going to prove very interesting. Hopefully your doctor will be able to offer a comment in a few weeks time.

The heels you mention, I have also thought about how and why people manage to walk in these. One would think that the discomfort would prove far too uncomfortable. But there might just be some additional boost to the circulation going on that affords prolonged use of them. This might also be why returning back to flat shoes becomes alien to someone using high heels.

We use a memory foam mattress, some people compain they they become too warm on a foam mattress but this does not appear to be the case on an inclined bed, although a friend of mine who has taken the angle to an extream did find she became too warm and she returned back to a coil sprung mattress. Her conditions is psoriasis btw, which probably affects the natural cooling of the skin. That said she is completely clear most of the time since tilting the bed and only shows 3 smal patches on elblows and name of back when she has some return of P. This is in direct contrast to her skin before tilting the bed, where she had considerable problems accompanied by joint problems due to the type of psoriasis she has.

Andrew

Maureen
29/08/2009 16:14:08 »

Hi Dagmar,

I wore 3 1/2" high heels for over 35 years. I wore them all day at work but changed to flats when I got home. I always had a pull type feeling in my calves (as if there were a guy wire pulling tight in my calf muscles) and could not bend over on my hunkers even if you paid me. It did not stop me walking a lot, cycling, rebounding etc. Just any kind of stretching was impossible for me. Finally I went to a Massage Therapist that did a very slight sideway pull back and forth on my calves and although it felt like nothing was being done it worked amazingly well for me. I went for many treatments after that to keep flexible then stopped. That was over 6 years ago and I still have no problem with it. So it may be worth it for you to try massage.

Maureen

Unnaked Patient
29/08/2009 16:32:54 »

Foam should not cause me any problems then, a I am always on the cold side. I am almost totally marblized with the Raynaud's blue tinge, which instantly disappears when lying down. My ankles are in very good shape, my legs, although not lacking in prominent veins, are very muscular, tops of my feet are covered with distended veins, which will become barely visible when in my shoes and wearing my other standby, also a lifelong habit, a regular pair of nylons, only very lightly constrictive. I do pay attention to waistbands with these, as some manufacturers make their 'one size fits all' waistbands even too tight for me. I am a very small person, 5'4", far removed from any weight problems, and have always avoided tight clothing.

When first looking at your website, your claim that varicose veins can revert, did not seem outlandish at all to me. I have one instance on my body, where this occurred, but I do not know how. All that is left, is one tiny bluish spot, size of the letter 'o', and barely visible. Original length about an 1 1/2", located directly under my navel. The reason for conducting my most recent search on reversal, was exactly, to find the answer to my own observations. After all, there had to be other people who have experienced reversal, even though not working on it deliberately. What I found instead, is deliberation, quite an improvement over unintentional. I am not complaining.


Thanks, again. Best,

Dagmar.

alun006
30/08/2009 20:52:02 »

Hi Andrew

As promised i thought i would update you with a picture of my calf tonight, As you can see the picture is better quality that normal. I just had problems keeping the camera still, but feel that the pictures shows the progress that has been made.

It is starting to look more now the way it first ever looked when i first noticed it many years ago.

I HAD TO BE PATIENT BUT WAS AWARE THAT IMPROVEMENT WAS BEING NOTICED


THIS IS THE CALF BEFORE INCLINE BED THERAPY - NOT TAKEN AT THE SAME ANGLE BUT SHOWS HOW IT WAS


THIS PICTURE WAS TAKEN AFTER 10 WEEKS - BUT NEEDED TO SEE MORE IMPROVEMENT



(THIS WAS TAKEN AT 8pm TONIGHT)


Andrew K Fletcher
31/08/2009 18:58:01 »

Alun, WOW what a difference.

And you no longer wear compression stockings that's a double WOW. Hope some vascular surgeons are paying attention here. Thank you

freeone
31/08/2009 15:46:25 »

Hi Andrew , I was diagnosed about eleven years ago with relapsing remitting multiple sclerosis .I decided three days ago to try the inclined bed therapy. First couple of days i felt the old usual pins and needles aches pins etc. But today when i awoke i could hardly stand with the pain in my lower back .I was taken aback because as i walked down stairs i felt like what i can describe only as electric shocks go up and down my spine followed by big waves i also felt something shift . I have never felt this clear for many a year.I am on LDN and although it has helped me in other ways i can only put this shift and clear headiness down to your inclined bed therapy . I will continue to sleep this way and i will keep a record of any changes that occurs and I truly want to Thankyou for posting your video and your inclined bed therapy idea on youtube. Hope I have posted this in correct area.
Many Thanks
Vivienne

Hi Vivienne

This thread is the varicose veins and oedema study but I am sure no one will mind you posting about your own experience using Inclined Therapy here.

www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=3886.50 this is the thread where you will find more information of use to you.

If you could also post your observatons here: www.thisisms.com/modules.php?name=Forums...opic&t=6755&start=90

It would be a great help as this is an MS forum and a friendly place like the NS forum.

The shooting pains is unusual to begin after a few days and is indicative that you may well experience significant recovery in the short term. I must warn you though pain is usually a primary indication of an imminent gain and pain can usually become intense as nerve pathways open up. But if you think about it for a while it makes sense as a connection with the brain from an area that was devoid of sensation allbeit a discomfort does lend itself to thinking that some damage must have been repaired for this to happen.

The first two weeks can be a bit of a rolercoaster ride but after this things settle down a bit in RR ms.

Andrew

daryl l
08/09/2009 12:42:50 »

hey andrew thanks for the quick reply,

my comparison from before i started ibt is simply that my vein has swollen more than before, whether it be caused by ibt or simply the fact that is was just a matter of time before it got worse thats what im trying to establish

the only real difference i have noticed in myself is that before the veins would actually hurt(unless i wore a compression stocking) and now they don't! but i do wonder whether this may simply be the fact that it was winter prior to my ibt!

also i must say that neither myself nor my girlfriend has suffered any kind of illness ie colds, hayfever, or the dreaded swine since we started tilting the bed (thats a definate plus point)

as for the trainers, i hear what you are saying there:)they are actually boots im wearing there and the socks pull up a lot higher than my ankles, i must admit i rarely wear those and on saturday the vein was the worst its ever looked, and it did stay up pretty much all day!
so i totally understand your point about the tourniquet scenario, really i suppose it just shows my vein bloating at its very worst!

im not going to stop using ibt, and i will take those three photos as you ask, i just hope the bloody thing doesn't spread any further up or down my leg!!

ps is the whole point of ibt to actually make the veins disappear completely for life, or just look better at certain times during the day?

kind regards again d

Hi Daryl

Any clothing that leaves a mark in the skin should be avoided, socks in particular are at the narrowest point in the leg where all of the veins and arteries converge, so this is very important when paying attention to your veins.

Have your blood pressure checked too. This is also important to monitor.

And last of all you mention compression stockings. Have you stopped using these now? If so then some additional swelling initially after you have stopped using them is a logical observation.

You asked if Inclined Therapy only provides temporary relief or permanent relief from varicose veins. I can only relate to my wifes vein since end of 1994. It has never returned to it's walnut size and aching. And Penny a good friend who had a large varicose vein running down the inside of her leg from thigh to ankle who was pictured on the beach showing clearly that the varicose vein has become normal in diameter and visibility since 1995.
www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=9843.50

So we need to find out if it is your tight socks and boots that caused the vein to swell.

In the morning before you get out of bed, can your wife take a photograph of the vein with you lying down. This should show the vein to be completely flattened as was the case with Alun's.

Andrew

Ely 10/09/2009 17:06:46 »

Hi Andrew

I tried IT for 4 weeks and my husband refuses to do it any longer since he can't sleep inclined very well. Is there a way for me to incline myself and still acheive the same effect as if I inclined the whole bed? Thanks!

BTW, I have only noticed an improvement in the achiness of my VV and haven't noticed any improvement in the appearance.

Thanks!
Ericka

Hi Ericka. Maybe if you lower the bed to a 4 inch incline and gradually raised it your husband might accept it better. Only way you could have a tilted bed is to use two single beds pushed together and yours tilted, or make a wedge to place under your side of the mattress.

Bet the veins stopped aching during walks? especially uphill right?

Denise
11/09/2009 09:29:45 »

Hello all

I still have to get these pics on here. Alun, if I could have your email address, I will mail you the pics to upload on my behalf if your kind offer still stands? I don't have the patience!

I have now been sleeping inclined for 7 weeks. We went to Barcelona for 5 days and took blocks to incline the bed over there so I haven't missed a night!

My calf vein is showing definate signs of improvement although I tend to forget this and get despondent when it does bulge from time to time.

When I get up in the morning it no longer bulges straight away and when it does it is much flatter and not so much of it shows. it only takes a very short while of me being up and about before it disappears. It seems to completely disappear to the point where it is difficult to even see the vein far more than it stands out. I love seeing my calf with no bulging vein

even when I go running, it seems to stay flat for the duration of my run, bulges when I stop running and cool down and then disappears again shortly after. This is consistent with the reaction of the veins in my arms which also bulge when I exercise then lay flat again when I have stopped and cool back down. I guess this is ho normal veins react.

I feel like my calf vein is starting to act like a normal vein and I am fairly confident that if I continue with IBT that it may eventually not bulge at any time. Fingers crossed.

I would just say to Ericka that 4 weeks is probably not long enough to notice any significant changes in the appearance of the veins and you really need to persevere. I can't believe the improvements in Alun's veins. That calf vein looks fab compare to 14 months ago.

alun006
11/09/2009 19:24:31 »

Daryl

To your question, yes i have experienced similar in my time on inclined bed therapy.

I remember, the very bottom looking bloated periodically in the same sort of way. However my experience was that the vein settled down in time.

In fact, if you look back at some of my threads, their was a situation with the very top of one of my vv's aswell. But this was because the vein was acting in a positive way rather than a negative.

Denise, you are very welcome to send the pictures you have taken, and i will upload them for you.

Contact me through the information on my profile.

Keep asking questions guys, i have been their and know that sometimes you may feel like nothing is happening. But in my experience it has always surprised me in a positive way every time.

I appreciate all of Andrew's dedication to this therapy and will support him as much as i can.
alun

Maureen
20/09/2009 20:20:37 »

Hi Andrew,

It’s been six weeks now that I have been sleeping on an Inclined Bed (IB). So far I can not see any further improvement in the amount of fluid/puffiness in my ankles since I last reported after 9 nights on IB. However, this is what I did notice. I had taken a three week break from jogging on a treadmill and rebounding on a mini-trampoline before sleeping on an IB. Also the same three weeks break from receiving Low Intensity Laser Therapy (L.I.L.T.) on my thighs and ankles for pain relief and fluid reduction. After resuming jogging while on the IB, I felt the usual soreness/stiffness that one gets when starting exercise. It seemed to be too much achiness for such a short break so I do not know if it was only exercise soreness or something due to Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT). I still feel slightly uncomfortable in my calves. I have not resumed L.I.L.T to date as I wanted to see what IBT would do on its own. My pressure pain level has reduced from a 7/10 to a 2/10 in the past week or so which is great!

L.I.L.T. history; In March 2008 I started with a pressure pain level of 6/10. After about 9 treatments the pain level reduced for the first time. I had a total of 20 treatments by October and ended with a pain level of 2/10. My insurance ran out so I waited until June 2009. The pain stayed away for about six months then gradually came back, this time to a level 7 which may likely be due to my tolerance level being lowered, I am not sure.
I have had 8 treatments so far in 2009 then stopped. Most people only need 1-10 L.I.L.T. treatments for injuries because they have a one time injury. Since I seem to collect and store fluid on a daily basis due to some malfunction it only makes sense that without continued treatment the problem will not remain fixed. So now with Inclined Bed Therapy and L.I.L.T. combined which I know both works for me I want to go back for the remainder of treatments I have insurance coverage for in 2009.

I will not book any appointments until I hear from you in case you want me to wait a bit longer. The sooner I go back for treatments the better for me since the weather will get bad later on and cause problems.

Maureen

alun006
11/09/2009 19:24:31 »

Daryl

To your question, yes i have experienced similar in my time on inclined bed therapy.

I remember, the very bottom looking bloated periodically in the same sort of way. However my experience was that the vein settled down in time.

In fact, if you look back at some of my threads, their was a situation with the very top of one of my vv's aswell. But this was because the vein was acting in a positive way rather than a negative.

Denise, you are very welcome to send the pictures you have taken, and i will upload them for you.

Contact me through the information on my profile.

Keep asking questions guys, i have been their and know that sometimes you may feel like nothing is happening. But in my experience it has always surprised me in a positive way every time.

I appreciate all of Andrew's dedication to this therapy and will support him as much as i can.
alun

21/09/2009 09:31:40 »

Maurine it is not for me to want you to do anything. Take from this therapy what you want and share your experience with us here, this is the only requirement.

I will say that the pain in your legs should become less using I.T based on many people reporting significant reductions in pain.

If you are comfortable with testing the inclined bed and the pain is not increasing then curiosity might get the better of you.

Talk to your doctor about what you are doing as he/she might be interested in what you have to say as the weeks go by.

The discomfort in your calf’s, would it be similar to discomfort from working out or exercising as if the muscles were becoming tighter?

Are you still wearing compression stocking, if so have you considered seeing what happens over 24 hours without wearing any?

Thanks for the update and fingers crossed over the coming weeks.

bam
09/10/2009 04:30:32 »

I did IBT several years ago and it really proved beneficial. Sleep quality was one of the marked improvements I remember and an overall feeling of being centered and grounded. I hope that this method gets the necessary recognition as there is definitely a good benefit from it.
09/10/2009 18:36:30 »

Andrew, I'm glad I found IBT but I have to be honest and admit that I have not been using it. Its partly laziness but also I feel like I've been getting the benefits in another way . Around the time that I discovered IBT I also found out how the modern toilet is one of the worst offenders to health known to man. In a way IBT led me to it while asking in what other ways that I'm not aware of am I misusing/abusing my body. This led me to look at diet/posture and then I stumbled on this site www.naturesplatform.com/health_benefits.html that discusses how the proper way to eliminate is in the squat position and that we are not physically suited to sit while eliminating. Now it is also interesting to note that the platform that is sold on the site is not a flat platform but the creator has it inclined for people who can't stay balanced due to weight and atrophied leg muscles from lack of use (is there a link with IBT? Vericose Veins?). Also on this site there is a small reference to the modern toilet as contributing to vericose veins. www.toilet-related-ailments.com/history-...pedestal-toilet.html.

10/10/2009 09:09:53 »

I too have mentioned many times about the pressure from the good old toilet seat causing constriction on the vessels as the pelvis plus our weight presses down on the skin fat and muscle compressing the vascular network within. This is inevitably going to cause back pressure into the arteries.

A nurse told me that many stroke victims are found on the toilet, she put it down to the onset of a stroke giving an urge to defecate. I suspected that prolonged use of a toilet possibly due to constipation or even sitting on the loo reading a newspaper which is not uncommon could well have caused the rise in arterial BP that triggered the stroke.

The same principle applies or should I say must apply to the flesh and vessels on the soles and heels of our feet when we stand still for long periods. We have all observed the funny videos of the groom or bride standing motionless at a wedding collapsing without any prior warning.

Guards on duty face the same problem and have learned to shift weight by rocking from one foot to the other, this would of course induce a pumping action on the fluid filled tissue and assist circulation rather than standing motionless and compromising the circulation. Not rocket science either just good old common sense.

Turning over in bed while sleeping is certainly an automatic reflex to the constant pressure of sleeping in one position.

Thanks for raising these points and please read the entire thread when you have time as there are impressive reports here from people using Inclined therapy.

Andrew

RD
10/10/2009 10:02:27 »

Quote from: Andrew K Fletcher on 10/10/2009 09:09:53
A nurse told me that many stroke victims are found on the toilet, she put it down to the onset of a stroke giving an urge to defecate.

Elderly people "do an Elvis" because straining on the toilet is like the Valsalva maneuver which causes their weak heart to stop, (so it's typically heart failure not stroke when people die on the crapper).

["do an Elvis" = Cardio-vascular event at defecation]


10/10/2009 20:16:48 »

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1399412.stm

This is interesting RD

Your point about the heart and straining is also valid

jpi108
13/10/2009 12:25:56 »

The study discussed in the BBC article is summarized here:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11903123

Read it closely and you'll see that it doesn't compare squatting to sitting for defaecation. So, the conclusion that sitting is less of a stroke risk is not justified. None of the subjects used the sitting position.

It is well known that defaecation itself causes a spike in blood pressure. Every year thousands of people get strokes and heart attacks straining on western toilets. It is also well known that squatting is more natural and reduces straining. That's why diverticulosis is only found in western countries.

I've been waging a practically hopeless campaign to squelch the rumour that squat toilets increase stroke risk. I'm quite sure that the opposite is true.
24/10/2009 09:53:23 »

Quote from: jpi108 on 13/10/2009 12:25:56
The study discussed in the BBC article is summarized here:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11903123

I've been waging a practically hopeless campaign to squelch the rumour that squat toilets increase stroke risk. I'm quite sure that the opposite is true.

Squating makes more sense as a means of reducing the compression on vessels which would inevitably cause blood to back up rather than circulating. That said, in the squat position the muscles would be contracted to support the weight of the body and this could indeed cause the vessels to be compressed by the tensed muscles. So not sure now which would be the best method.