Varicose Vein Oedema Inclined Bed Therapy Study Alternative to Surgery

geordiejulie
15/04/2009 00:03:56 »

Hi Andrew

It's been awhile since I added a post but to be honest the last few months have been full of ups and downs. Mainly due to the life changing effect the IBT has had on Alun. I am truly amazed at the difference that has occurred in his leg health. His varicose veins as you had predicted have receded so that they are barely visible. I cannot understand why more money is not being allocated to this study which would save the NHS literally millions of pounds, where is the logic in that!

The leg pains my husband has had over the years have at times reduced him to tears and after endless examinations and procedures nothing has ever been diagnosed, we literally could not go shopping together as it was guaranteed that his legs would ache not with the varicose veins but around the knee. We could not enjoy any alcoholic beverages as the same thing would occur. I am very happy to report that both of these have almost been eradicated. I am a happy woman!
I have to stress that these changes have not occurred overnight but over a matter of months but the results can only speak for themselves we have nothing to gain by glorifying this.

As for myself I recently reported changes to my menstrual cycle which to be honest is still a little irregular.

An observation i did make though was that whilst having the dreaded 'diarrhea and sickness' bug last year alun slept on the incline whilst myself and the children who were unable to bear the atrocious noise from upstairs slept downstairs. Whilst aluns bug lasted a matter of around 3 - 4 hours, my bug dragged on for almost 36 hours. I had not noticed particularly before this some subtle changes that had happened either. Whilst stopping down at my mothers for a night or two i had to sleep on a flat bed and i have to tell you i could not have predicted missing that incline so much. I was literally chilled to the bone! It didn't matter what i did i could not warm myself up and I woke up in agony. When i got back home and back into that bed it was like being wrapped up i a blanket and cuddled! It did take a few days for the effect on my back to wear off. This is a change i would not have acknowledged before this.

In general my back has improved one heck of a lot. I occasionally wake up with it aching but honestly this is far far less than before and doesn't last for days as before, more like hours. My hip honestly rarely hurts now. I have been able to walk longer distances and this is absolutely brilliant for me and this was something that worried me.

Another thing I did experience was for about a month after Christmas, so having been on the incline for about 4 months, i experienced quite a lot of knee pain. The knee pain occurred in my left knee and strangely enough this is the side that my hip always gave me the pain. I am happy to say that this is something that has subsided.

I do wake up some mornings with pain on the outside edge of my left foot although this does subside after awhile as well.

Oh and good news for the ladies, i can definitely see a huge difference in the cellulite to my legs and bottom and there aren't many cures for that! Whether this is helped by the amount of fluid i now drink or the fact that the muscle tone is improved i am not too sure but it has happened. No complaints here.

When in a flat bed i always slept on my left side or on my stomach and interestingly i can sleep on neither now. I can now only sleep on my right side or my back.

All in all, i would say that although i had doubts and reservations about the simplicity of IBT and the effects that it could have, I can only give positive comments as I can only comment on what I see and feel.

With the varicose veins, i cant understand why anyone would actually resort to surgery or invasive chemicals to reduce them when the 9 months alun has spent on IBT have proved that this works. Full Stop.

Alun and I have two children, our eldest son suffers from asthma, eczema and hayfever and this does cause him a few problems. The youngest has a very mild form of cerebral palsy, which affects him physically in that he does struggle with P.E and gross motor movements although this is far improved from when he was a small child, mainly due to his determination.

Our eldest sons asthma has been worse lately and at times unpredictable. On a recent trip to High Force which is a massive waterfall, our son was fine whilst walking down to the waterfall but when at the foot of this his asthma came on quite severely which was worrying to us proving the effect of humidity on asthma and the body. It literally drained him. On another occasion we went to Hamsterly forrest we were again confronted with this sudden onset of his asthma just as it started to rain.

The next plan for us is to put the children on an incline and note what happens there and not only are we looking forward to that but so are the children.

I honestly don't think that we could go back to a flat bed now.

I will keep noting any changes as regular as I can.

I cant really thank you enough and really hope that things change and people can just sit up and realise what you are doing here.

I think in the near future you will be repeating those little words 'I told you so!' quite a lot Andrew....

geordiejulie
18/04/2009 08:21:01 »

RD

I have to say you are as determined to disprove Andrews theory as he is to prove it. That makes you as bad as each other.

I have read your previous 'titter tatter' with Andrew with interest and fair to say that I had noticed the spots on Aluns legs before this time and wondered what could be causing them. However this rash and discolouration occured as the veins went down and has since cleared, it could also have been caused by an allergic reaction to some mustard seeds he was using as an alternative therapy at the time to clear up what we thought was ringworm. The ring worm which has been since diagnosed as eczema, something which both myself and eldest son have a touch of(along with the usual hayfever and asthma)and has since cleared up with some emuvate.

Alun has also for the record been examined by a top vascular surgeon who did not seem to pick up on any signs of vasculitis and I must point out that this surgeon is very highly respected and I would definately put my life in his hands.

I really have nothing to gain by fighting Andrews corner and had initially been very sceptical, but have seen this massive improvement with my own eyes.

The leg pains you tie in with the vasculitis have been occuring since Alun was a small baby, before he could walk according to his mum and correct me if Im wrong but I would not have thought of vasculitis being apparent at this tender age. Also my youngest son has had the same leg pains since being a toddler as well, he has healthy legs, so does this mean that he has vasculitis as well.
I have to say I am always up to comment because I see science as never being exact. It is something that should always be looked at inside and outside of the box.

I have previously also watched my grandma suffer from poor circulation conditions including gangrene and would not ever hesitate to rush Alun to a doctor or consultant if I was unduly worried.

So thanks for you advice but for now I am going to ride this one out.

I suppose in a nut shell people would have probably poo pooed the idea of mould being used as an effective antibiotic at one point?

Best regards

Julie
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av

23/04/2009 23:07:48 »


i was going thru this forum and found it to be really interesting...was wondering where i,d be able to get the details of this IBT experiment thats been going on??plus id wanna know if alun's varicosities reappeared in the evening

alun006
24/04/2009 15:13:20 »

Hi Av

Nice to see you taking a interest in the inclined bed therapy.

My varicose veins do not re-appear on a night, if that was the question. They improove as the day goes on, the opposite of what most sufferers experience.

Thank you
av
25/04/2009 21:06:44 »

sure you can..its just that from what i knew abt varicose veins is that there is a defect in the vein valves which prevent the backflow of blood from the deep veins to the superficial veins leading to pooling of blood in the superficial leg veins which causes them to become the way they do...the fact that just by inclining the bed at night can lead to the veins becoming normal and remaining so or rather as alun said becoming better as the day progressed was kind of difficult for me to reason..but since he's got his vv improving means that it is working though kind of difficult to think how

26/04/2009 11:20:01 »

AV varicose veins cannot be caused by defective valves in Alun's and many more cases at least. Because their valves would still be as defective if this were the case and they would not return to normal veins over time. The only logical conclusion is that the pressure inside the vein that was causing them to dilate and twist has been addressed by tilting the bed. This is further backed up by the migration of oedema from the skin and surrounding tissue back into the venous return and excreted in the urine via renal filtration as should be the case in a person unaffected by oedema.

T get a clear picture of my reasoning for tilting a bed, look at the video experiments on Youtube, showing water rising up a 6 mil bore nylon tube to 24 metres, also a scaled down experiment shows this effect clearer. This vertical circulation is driven by introducing a tiny amount of denser minerals that are dissolved in 10 mils of salt solution (in the larger experiment) Less solute will also cause the same circulation!

Here we have a downward flow which contains the salt solution and represents the phloem in the tree but also represents the arterial flow in the human body, the salts added to the arteries at an elevated pint, not by introducing them as in the experiment but by the evaporation from exhaling and evaporative loss from the skin and eyes. It is impossible for evaporation to take place from a fluid that contains solutes like the blood, cerebrospinal fluid, tissue fluid and the fluid that flows onto the surface of the lungs and respiratory tract. Tears from the eyes and sweat from the skin illustrate this concentrating effect, so do nasal and oral mucous / secretions.

In the case of the lungs, salts and sugars are inevitably concentrated by evaporation and the resulting density changes will cause the fluids to migrate back through the lining of the lungs and into the arterial circulation, forcing more dilute fluids to flow onto the surface ready fro the next exhale.

This would release pulses of salts into the arteries and providing we are aligned to the direction of gravity in relation to the predominantly vertically placed veins and arteries, these salts will assist the circulation introducing a positive pulsatile pressure flow in the artery and at the same time cause a dragging effect on all of the molecules in the blood providing a boost for the return flow in the veins. It is this boost venous return flow boost that provides us with an understanding of Starlings law of the heart.

Increased venous return was demonstrated by elevating a vessel containing blood linked to the heart to show how an increase in venous return to the heart produces a greater output from the heart. The body however does not have a vessel connected to it with a length of tubing to increase the venous return. What it does have however is an ability to release solutes down the artery to induce a slight increase in arterial pressure and a compensating decrease in venous pressure that pulls more blood back to the heart caused by the dragging effect the solutes have in the descending arterial flow.

Fir this to be correct, density changes in urine output would need to be related to inclined bed posture, showing a moderate increase in urine density.

But the opposite effect should take place if we sleep horizontally showing a moderate comparative decrease in the density of the solutes found in the urine. A simple hydrometer test provided the evidence for this. But the most important reading was when my wife and I slept head down for several days. Here the urine output went down to a near water density. So the body was either storing the solutes within the blood, muscle, tissue and bones or the uptake from the gut had been interrupted.

I think it was a combination of both, as my wife and I both ended up with diarrhoea, indicative of more fluids passing through the bowls.

Further research revealed that head down sleeping was capable of causing weight loss and was I believe used with the late actor Marlon Brando. However, as mentioned earlier in this thread, head down sleeping is going to cause a lot more problems than weight loss over time. NASA have been proving this for many years and still are repeating these same postural experiments offering large sums of money to youngsters to sleep head down to see what happens to their physiology and with good reason, as head down tilt produces a rapid ageing / degenerative process on normally healthy people.

So to sum up, tilting the bed correctly (IBT) method alters the pressures inside the predominantly vertical vessels by allowing gravity to push and pull on dissolved solutes flowing in the blood, lymph, cerebrospinal fluid and tissue fluids.

Andrew K Fletcher

Xenity
19/05/2009 01:08:37 »

Hello Andrew and everyone else at this forum.

Congrats for this great place to inform and share knowledge.

This is my first message here, and I want ot apologize in advance if my english is not good enough, my mother tongue is not english.

I had esclerotherapy done on my legs last Thursday.
I do not have severe varicose veins, but during my pregnancy I had a long flight (16 hours) that cause me a thrombosis in my right calf.
After that I have been soffering some discomfort in the area, specially during hot weather.
The first doctor's diagnose, after checking out my blood circulation, was a grade I of venous insuficiency (sorry I do not know what's the right translation of this).
Just something that could evolve in time to a major problem or bigger varicose veins.
According to his words nothing to really be afraid off. He said they were more an aesthetical problem than a health problem at this point. I decided not to touch them if the esclerotherapy would not guarantee the discomfort get better.

Few months later I went to visit another doc and who told me the best way to prevent them to grow bigger and to get worse was to do esclerotherapy or laser. He said my condition would not get better by doing the esclerotherapy but I would retard the evolution of the decease or even stop it if, eventually, i keep checking on them and eliminate the ones that appear as soon as I notice them. He did not only inject the area I had the discomfort on due to my thrombosys but other areas I had no discomfort at all or noticed any enlargen varicose veins. He kept repeating he had "the expert eye" and could see a problem coming soon.

Well, this was not only expensive but an experience I do not want to repeat if there is a way to avoid it.

Right now I am wearing compression stockings wich I am supposed to wear at least for a week based on his post-esclerotherapy suggestions.

I still have some blueish due to the injectionss and I really want to try IBT as soon as possible but I have a few questions I would like you to answer if possible.

1st. Should I wait until my legs are totally healed from the bruises I have to start IBT?

2nd. Is there any negative side effect or uncompatibility if I use IBT after having some veins esclerosed?

3rd. Doc told me the healing would speed up proportionally to the time I use this compression stockings. If instead wearing them for 7 days I wear them for 20 my legs will recover faster. Is ITB advised to use with any compression garment or not?

I apologize in advance, because I have not read the whole thread and probably many of my questions here have been answered.
As I said on the beggining of my post my english is not as good as I would like it to be and sometimes is kind of difficult to fully understand everything.

Thanks in advance for your time and for your great work.
Xenity
19/05/2009 12:11:11 »

Andrew,

I think you have missed my previous message. Maybe because Daryl sent a message similar to mine right after I posted.
I am decided to try the inclined bed therapy and some of my questions have been answered already by your post to Daryl. However I'd still like to know if, based on others experience or in your own data it is too soon for me to start after having esclerotherapy done last Thursday.

BenV
I cannot speak by others, but regarding myself I consider that I have read enough or had enough transparent information to decide what to do with my health and life. I appreciate your concern, but in no case Andrew claims to be a doctor and I am taking his advices as something to consider, to think about and, finally, if I go for it, to try on my own risk.
Exactly what I have done by visiting a doctor.
I think we are all responsible to take our own decisions and to be consequent with the results of them.

Someone who conduces an study about IBT with his own resources and asks no money or any other compensation than a follow up from people gives me much more trust than some other people out there called "professionals" that gave me his medical advice and charged an enormous amount of money to, somehow, and temporarily, fix the problem that I had and the ones I did not have yet, of course charging me for both. This is exactly what has happened to me recently. I totally feel like a lab rat.

Believe me, if IBT or any other alternative remedy that I try do not work for me I am not going to claim to be mislead from anyone else but myself. Information is the key and I think, nowadays, we have tons of it to do a good research, contrast opinions and finally decide what to do.

Thanks.

19/05/2009 12:24:13 »

Hello and welcome to Nakedscientists.
Wish you had found us sooner as you may well have avoided the surgery procedures and it’s inherent risks.
See comments on this video: Link:
Thrombosis has resolved using Inclined therapy and is thought to be a result of the circulation improvements assisting the removal of the blockages. My wife’s mother was the first to report this, asking me where the huge hard mass on her leg that had been with her for years could have gone. Worth monitoring this.
Side effects reported are muscular aches, like you would expect from exercise. Stiff neck with a number of people usually lasting a few days and even a few weeks for some as the spine is stretched due to the traction of sleeping inclined.
The blood that flowed down the closed veins must be re-routed and Inclined therapy can greatly assist this process. Bruising should vanish more quickly using I.T.
I would imagine using a heavy compression stocking after sclerotherapy will assist in the closing of the veins. This is logical, so in order to prevent the improvements in circulation associate with using I.T from undoing the sclerotherapy waiting for the veins to close completely is advisable.
I cannot help feeling concerned that sclerotherapy has been used close to a deep vein thrombosis and not sure that this should have been performed with the knowledge that you have a more serious circulation problem than simply varicose veins. A compression stocking may cause this to worsen, although it is advised to use a graduated compression stocking for two years after developing a blood clot / thrombosis.
Thinking abut how this could work, it might be that the restriction on the veins due to the applied pressure could increase the through-flow of blood, a bit like putting your finger over a hosepipe accelerates the outflow of water. I think this can be achieved and indeed has been achieved using I.T without the compression stocking, though the choices you make are ultimately your own.
You should consult your doctor about I.T and about your thrombosis and be especially vigilant with regards to monitoring your skin appearance following sclerotherapy.
Andrew




Sclerotherapy advice: esclerotherapy.com/
Risks of Sclerotherapy
All surgery brings risk including Sclerotherapy. A good candidate for Sclerotherapy is in good overall health and has the psychological stability to deal with the recovery period. There is often some post-op pain or discomfort, temporary bruising and swelling, some restriction on activity, and some work-time lost.
recovery is straightforward when you get a Sclerotherapy if you follow doctor’s orders
Your cosmetic surgeon will give you written instructions for how to care for yourself after a Sclerotherapy. There’ll be such things as:
· Medications for pain or infection prevention
· Creams or lotions – to promote healing
· Special garments – to give support
· Wound care procedures
· Bedrest – for a short time only, and not for all Sclerotherapy procedures
· Gradually increased activity – to gradually rebuild strength and promote circulation without endangering wound healing
There’ll be some follow-up appointments to monitor your Sclerotherapy recovery, so be sure and keep them. With careful self-care and compliance with the plastic surgeon’s advice, most people have a complete Sclerotherapy recovery and a happy outcome.
Post-Op Complications Sometimes Happen
Serious complications after a Sclerotherapy are rare, but if they do happen, you should notify your plastic surgeon immediately. Things to watch for after a Sclerotherapy are:
· Sudden extra bleeding.
· A feverish temperature – this can indicate infection.
· Discoloration around the treated area, especially greenish or yellowish – another sign of infection and a sign that local blood circulation is perhaps impaired
· Increased pain – this usually accompanies infection
· Increased numbness, tingling or prickling – some of this may be expected, but notify your cosmetic surgeon if it seems to persist or increase. It could indicate nerve injury.
· Increased swelling (beyond what may be predicted by your plastic surgeon after your Sclerotherapy procedure) – could be a haematoma forming (a pooling of blood).
A minor haematoma can be drained with a needle, but if it’s left untreated, can lead to infection and even necrosis (death) of the skin.
A major haematoma, if it occurs at all, will show up in the first 12 hours or so post-op and is a medical emergency. You’ll notice pain, swelling and general agitation. Be sure and report this immediately to your plastic surgeon. Hematomas can turn into blood clots, which can then break free and circulate in the blood. This is life-threatening, but rarely happens.

19/05/2009 14:48:16 »
Xenity
Thanks Andrew for your reply.

I think I will make sure I am fully recovered from my esclerotherapy prior to any attempt to IBT for the moment.
My doc told me to go back on fall to check the evolution on my legs and see if another sclerotherapy session is needed.
As I want to avoid further esclerotherapy sessions it might be the right moment to start IBT if everything is fine.

Will keep you posted if anything changes.

Thanks again for your help.

BenV on 19/05/2009 11:38:33
Andrew

I know you have confidence in this, and that you would like to collect more evidence, but it is not appropriate for you to be advising people to ignore their doctor's advice. Especially considering the tiny amount of information you have been given.

You know very little about this person's situation, so I think it's highly irresponsible of you to tell them to ignore medical advice.

Ben, not advising people to ignore their doctors advice, just advising that Daryl may be able to avoid using a support stocking when the effects of Inclined Therapy become apparent as they did with Alun, who no longer requires the use of a support / compression stocking.
See the MSRC report titled Raised Bed Survey to see that 6 people out of ten people with ms reported improvements in varicose veins and oedema. It is also worth remembering that not all people with ms have varicose veins and indeed not all of the ten people interviewed had varicose veins but all that did had experienced huge improvements. And some of the partners of the participants who shared the same inclined sleep experienced improvements in varicose veins.
www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=3886.25

daryl l
19/05/2009 09:19:41 »

hi andrew and everyone else on the forum,

im 34 and last year discovered a varicose vein on my right leg, it protrudes around the underside of my ankle, slightly above my ankle and then there is a gap of about 4" before it starts protruding on the inside of my lower leg (this is around 5" long and finishes just inline with the bottom of my knee) i will obviously try and put pictures up tonight to clarify!!

i am so pleased to have found this forum as i am genuinely petrified of surgery and anything i can do to try and cure this problem will be of great help

just a couple of questions for you if you don't mind?

1,the doctor advised that during the day i wear a compression stocking as i do some lifting with my job on occasion, does this still stand??

2,as of last night i inclined the bed by 6" at the head end and found that on waking up this morning my legs felt heavy and the vein was visible right from the off! could this be because the vein pools at the bottom of my foot around my ankle and if so can inclining make it worse?

many thanks on your fantastic work and i shall update my progress as best i can

19/05/2009 11:15:32 »

Hi Daryl.

Compression stockings are going to shift the pressure problem to other veins, pretty obvious really. Alun who has provided us with some amazing photographs no longer requires compression stockings and enjoys wearing shorts in the summer. The calf muscle VV has returned to a normal looking vein.

By shifting the pressure problem to other areas using a compression stocking, you may experience haemorrhoids and even a bulge in the groin termed as a blow out. Think of squeezing a balloon, as you compress it the rest of the balloon expands.

Initially there will be some changes to the way your veins behave as the circulation improves. It is around 4 weeks that improvements should become more obvious, so don’t be discouraged by the minor changes you are observing in your ankles.

Do not cross your legs when sitting and do not sit with your knees higher than your seat so use an extra cushion to raise your bottom up higher or at least level with your knees.

Also try leaving the compression stockings off when you feel comfortable to do so.

Examine your veins before you get out of bed and while you are laying on the incline, best achieved by asking a partner or parent to take a photograph while you are laying on the incline. See alun's photographs while on the incline.

And please take some photographs of your veins for comparison later.

Do you have and oedema (fluid retention problem)?

How did you find sleeping on the incline, could you notice a significant difference?

Thank you for joining the study.

Andrew

daryl l
19/05/2009 17:08:12 »

hi andrew thanks for the reply,
the first night on the incline seemed slightly strange, after about twenty minutes i got some tingling in my legs and then must of nodded of! and on waking this morning i found my legs slightly heavier than normal which eased after ten minutes of walking about, the only thing to note was that both i and my girlfriend found we had slid down the bed in the night grin

as for the stocking, i will cease wearing it as of today and see how it goes!!

This is my ankle:


And this is of the side of my leg,not the biggest of vv's but its bashing my confidence no end


also i don't suffer from any kind of oedema, hope this helps and i shall keep updating as and when
thanks again

19/05/2009 17:23:37 »

Thanks for the photographs.

Not as bad as I anticipated they might be, so we should expect significant improvements in 4 weeks as was the case with my wife and a nurse who were the first to try it many years ago now.

To prevent slipping put a quilt / duvet / blanket under the bottom sheet and tuck it under the mattress. The additional friction should help a lot. Also after a while you grow accustomed to the slope.

Andrew

free spirit just soul
19/05/2009 22:27:21 »

Hi Andrew,

I have serious varicose veins. I would love to participate in your study!! Are you still looking for participants? I also have some motor nerve damage as evidenced by Nerve Conduction Studies and EMG's. I would be willing to track that data as well, since you mention the potential MS implications. Where do I sign up?

Julia

Hi Julia
The study is informal and aimed at providing strong anecdotal evidence supported preferably with photographic evidence. This thread contains most of the information you require. The intervention is simply to avoid sleeping flat as per the picture on the start of this thread.

This study should mirror two previous pilot studies, although this study is aimed at varicose veins and oedema, your input with regards to your neurological problems and possible changes would be most welcome and of considerable interest to myself and others using this forum.

Conducted under the watchful eyes of doctors and scientists we may even force a controlled study aimed at disproving or proving once and for all the predictable improvements in varicose veins and oedmea. But this would shake the foundations of the medical establishment so will be resisted for now at least.

Andrew