Varicose Vein Oedema Inclined Bed Therapy Study Alternative to Surgery

daryl l
01/07/2009 16:24:00 »

as promised (week 5)
firstly my ankle, i have noticed that the little red veins surrounding the bulges seem to have spread apart from that no real change as yet.
now my leg, i know it seems hard to see but its actually worse than the photo shows, you can just about make out where the bulging has moved slightly further down the leg and almost looks to be returning upwards in a "V" shape i can take pics from other angles if it helps? and if someone can teach me how to highlight certain areas that would be great

lastly i will get my girlfriend to take a pic first thing in the morning, i do notice that first thing if i look at my leg before i get up that the veins are totally flat and invisible!!
hope this is a good sign??

First Photographs below for comparisons

02/07/2009 11:36:07 »

Skin tone looks much healthier. Veins look less prominent to me, especially on the calf. Though could be due to tan. On the other hand the fact that you have a tan means you are more confident

More photographs from different angle might be helpful.

The veins being invisible on waking is very important as it confirms the efficacy of Inclined Therapy. The longer the veins remain normal in appearance the more elasticity they will recover over time and the more resistant to pressure changes they will become over time.

Be patient Daryl and please keep a journal as your observations with humidity not only fit with the varicose vein therapy and understanding but add weight to my theory for gravity assisted circulation.

Thank you for providing the new photographs and your observations.

Andrew

Denise
01/08/2009 12:11:23 »

Hi Andrew

I found your website when looking for information on Varicose Veins and being interested in alternative therapies, I was hooked.

I recently went to my GP because I had noticed some bumps on the inside of my right ankle and a vein which contracts and relaxes with my left calf muscle. I've never been a partciularly large person and have always been fit and exercised well but over the past year I lost 1 stone in weight due to taking up running.

Anyway, my GP was totally dismissive and told me that I was getting old (I'm 38) and they were varicose veins. He said I could get cosmetic surgery done on them but not under the NHS because they aren't causing me any problems.

I was really upset by his attitude and although the veins aren't that noticeable and I'm not 100% sure they are varicose, I decided to try your IBT. My husband used bricks to raise the bed to the recommended incline and we have been sleeping like this for a week now.

My husband doesn't get up in the night to go to the toilet like he usually does, he doesn't snore as much and we both feel really refreshed when we wake up.

With regard to my veins, they are flat when I wake in the morning but become raised when I start moving about. However, my husband is convinced that the vein on my left calf is starting to flatten slightly.

I have noticed over the past couple of days that by mid afternoon, the bumps on my ankle and the vein on my calf seem to lessen almost completely and stay that way for the rest of the evening.

Am I being a bit optimistic that they will disappear completely and that this is a good sign?

Regards.

Denise Bunce

Denise
01/08/2009 12:32:47 »

Thanks for the IT instructions Andrew. As you can probably tell, I'm a bit of a technophobe. happy I've managed to paste my original message to you on here so there's a start!

I've read through the entire thread from Daryl, Karen, Alun, etc and it's all very interesting.

I would like to take part in your study if you want me to. Next hurdle will be downloading pics on here! wink

I have now been sleeping on an inclined bed for 10 nights.

I have a prominent/varicose vein on my left calf over the muscle. It isn't very big and I noticed it in a lift mirror whilst on holiday about last September. That's not to say it wasn't there before but I don't tend to go round looking at the back of my legs for fear of walking into something!

I also have some flesh coloured bumps on the inside of my right leg down near my ankle with no visible vein beneath.

I'm 38, I'm very slim (size 6/8, 5' 6" tall) and I do masses of fast walking, running, cycling and horse riding so I'm pretty fit.

Anyway, these lumpy veiny things are knocking my self confidence a bit even though they aren't that noticeable and finding this study has been quite exciting especially hearing about and seeing photos of shrinking veins!

We have a memory foam mattress and my other half has put 2 bricks under the head end one brick under the middle section so we have the right incline.

My hubby is a light sleeper/insomniac. Since inclining the bed, he has been sleeping like a proverbial log. Also, he tends to get up most nights to go to the loo and this has stopped. The best thing is that the snoring has almost stopped completely too so he is a convert already.

As for me, I'm Mrs Impatient and keep getting told off for expecting immediate results with this therapy. I sleep well but am waking up feeling very refreshed. My ankle lumps are always well up in the morning when I get up and stay that way until about 4pm when they start to subside a little and virtually disappear towards the end of the day. The calf vein does the same. I'm not sure whether this is down to IBT as I never studied them so closely before this!

When I am relaxed, my calf vein virtually disappears. It is only prominent when I am moving about and it contracts and relaxes with each step. I'm not sure it is varicose but it does appear to be slightly smaller than it was and ever so slightly flatter.

The little lumpy bits seem to ache since I started IBT. They don't hurt at all to touch and it might even be something to do with my running as that does make my legs ache from time to time.

My hubby is working away but is home tonight so I will get him to do his David Bailey impersonation and get some photos so you can all laugh at my sparrow legs

A couple of questions for you old hands at IBT;

1. If you go on holiday and sleep flat for a few nights, will the veins come back?

2. Do the raised areas flatten and disappear completely over time?

Oh well, enough rambling. I have 7 guinea pigs to muck out in between rain showers!

04/08/2009 14:06:27 »

Hi Denise

Glad you found us and welcome to Nakedscientists.

Thank you for adding your observations to this thread. The more people that find us the more the argument for inclining the bed the opposite way around to what the medical profession are currently recommending will “eventually” be realised.

It takes around 4 weeks for the veins to begin to respond to the pressure / tension changes in the venous return blood. Why it takes 4 weeks I have no idea, it is based upon many people who have already used this technique.

To post pictures effectively open a photobucket account or flicker account and upload your photographs to it. Then copy the link it generates for message boards into your post, select preview and if all is ok hit the post button.

Using this method will give better resolution than uploading to the forum.

The link should look like this

Not sure about the fleshy coloured bumps, maybe someone on the forum can help you with this.

Great that your hubby is open minded too and willing to give this a go. And the snoring stopping will bring about other bonuses no doubt.

When people go on Holliday they often take some strong plastic bed risers with them, these can be purchased from a chemist or even online on ebay and they fit inside each other so don’t take up too much room.

Sleeping flat for a week may well make the veins swell again but over time the veins will become less able to stretch and should resist pressure changes from sleeping flat occasionally.

Andrew

alun006
06/08/2009 22:10:06 »

Hi Denise

Yes i am impatient person when it comes to most things, so i can relate to whot you are saying their.

Thankyou for confirming the fact that your veins actually get better as the day goes on, this is a observation that i also made and believe this is actually i.b.t working for you.

Even after 13 months on i.b.t, i have days were i may see the veins swell. But know off experience that this is mainly a temporary thing due to the weather or other factors. The fact is that i have had the vv for more than 15 years and did not expect it to be a quick fix, but a slow process that has and is making progress month by month.

Initially Andrew has seen progress that has been as soon as 4 weeks, as i did. But for a vein the size of mine i have had to be a bit more patient.

I will always feel that the next photo will show no progress cosmetically, but am proved wrong each time.

I have noticed a increase in spider veins on my left ankle, and this has some whot disappointed me. But with a increase in pressure due to the big v vein decreasing in size on my left calf, maybe this could be a explanation for this change.

MOST IMPORTANT
I had a very bad sporadic pain that has been present since birth. I would suffer from this in the knee area many times in a week. Pain killers were essential and i had a operation to rectify this at a very young child. It never worked.

I.B.T has decreased this by 1 every 3 weeks if that - this is amazing in itself. ( I used to get as many as 3 attacks a week on average.

I am sure this will be eradicated very soon on I.B.T

I have also now gettin rid of my hay fever that i have had for the past 10 year's - hurray grin

I feel it is very important to always increase your water intake with i.b.t, as it has always seemed to give me a detox on a regular basis.

HERE IS A EXAMPLE OF THE IMPROVEMENT I HAVE SEEN.
I HAVE NOT MANIPULATED THESE PHOTOS EXCEPT FROM PLACING THEM ON THE BACKGROUND CANVESS
PLEASE HAVE A LOOK AT POINT 1 - This shows a full disappearance below it of at least a 5 inch vv that was their from the start..
As well as better looking and healthier leg - Many other areas can be seen to be decreasing in size........

Can you spot any more? - Have a look on my knee, their was a vv that has now gone..(just below the letter P on the word Point)

Your pictures viewed larger in this link: i321.photobucket.com/albums/nn36 … -1-IBT.jpg Are amazing, phenomenal improvements in your varicose veins. The skin colour on your legs is far healthier and indicates you could be wearing shorts outdoors. I remember you saying you have done so while visiting the beach.

And let’s not forget that you no longer need to wear those dreadful compressing stockings. I saw a guy down in Brixham who had a pair on only yesterday as we drove through. Definitely not good for ones self esteem.

The large varicose vein on the back of your leg “calf muscle area” has not been mentioned, could we have an updated photograph of it please?

Looking forward very much to when your son starts the inclined therapy too.

The pain that has been constantly present since birth in you knee and now only present occasionally is another pointer to what is happening to the nervous system and adds credence to my extensive work helping people with neurological conditions.

Neuropathic pain does not respond well to medication.
Multiple sclerosis:
Pain in particular often becomes more intense when people sleep flat. I suspect this is pressure related. Yet people with ms that use the Inclined Bed method find that retiring to bed provides a much-welcomed relief from pain.

Andrew

geordiejulie
07/08/2009 20:38:12 »

Hi Andrew

Just a quick note.

In November of last year I noticed some spotting in front of my eyes. Being a regular user of glasses since the age of about 12 I went to my optician and had a thorough eye examination and drops put in my eyes so the optician could check my eye health. The optician reported the backs of my eyes as healthy with a slight change of prescription. The spotting he put down to a general degeneration of pieces of gel detaching themselves from the back of the eye. This is still apparent from time to time.

What has amazed me today though is that I found my prescription from last November and also the one I had from the year previous to this(2007)
There are improvements to the sight in both eyes! This is down in black and white and quite frankly I'm stunned. I mean when the optician said there were changes I naturally presumed he meant worse, not better!

Julie, thank you so much for posting these observations. Many such reports have been provided from people using Inclined Therapy over the years. One would think that the RNIB charity would welcome such a practical simple application for assisting someone with visual impairment, yet they failed miserably to respond when two ladies unrelated and both registered as severely visually impaired with supposedly irreversible optic nerve damage both tilted their beds around the same time during a pilot study for people with ms. Both ophthalmologists wrote to me within a month of each other asking the same question. “How can two blocks of wood under a persons bed restore a persons sight?” This is exactly what happened to two totally unrelated people in two different towns over the same time scale.

One would have believed at the time that any charity that collects money for the blind would be compelled to investigate such claims. Wrong, that familiar brick wall appears in so many places. Guess they care more about their £millions than finding out if tilting a bed could help a person see again.

I will post the letters from the RNIB and my letters for all to see when I have time.

Thanks again Julie

All the best

Andrew

alun006
08/08/2009 19:24:08 »

Hi Andrew

Actually, interesting enough.

I have not had shorts on when going outside.

I am sure that this will happen more and more in time.

But does bring up the question, that the colour is not down to the sun.

Just wanted you to know this.........

Thanks alun

Alun is refering to the change in skin colour in his last photograph.

Maureen
09/08/2009 23:39:18 »

Hi Andrew,

I found out about you through your posts on EarthClinic and your link to YouTube. I read all nine pages on this site along with YouTube information.

Last night my husband and I started sleeping on about a 61/2” incline on an 80” long mattress (Queen Size). My main reason is to see if it removes the excess fluid in my ankles. The secondary reason is to see if it will eventually eliminate the pain in my thighs I get from pressure sitting or laying down too long. The pain is a new problem in the past two years. I have self-diagnosed myself as having primary lipeodema (as doctors ignore the problem). Here is where I got my information www.lymphoedema.org/lsn/lsn070.htm This may also help en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lipedema I am not sure if the bed will help with that, maybe you can advise so I don’t have false hopes. I will still incline for the ankles regardless.

I slept well the first night on the incline. I did not have any problems slipping down the bed which I expected. I did not feel any different when I woke up this morning. I took photographs yesterday so I will check-out how to open a Flickr account and upload them. When I see a difference I will take more photos and submit them to this site.

More reports from people using Inclined Therapy: www.earthclinic.com/Remedies/incline-bed-therapy.html

Hi Maureen

Thanks for joining the study. Your condition should respond well based upon others with lymphoedema, admittedly not lipoedema but the principles behind the inclined bed should initiate an increase in urination initially over 4 weeks. Fingers crossed that this will be the case as you are the first person with lipoedema to test this.

Many times I have observed people with acute oedema problems and some times I have mentioned that it would be a good idea to research Inclined Therapy on the Internet to them without saying anything about myself or how it works in the hope that some of these people will find their way to trying this simple therapy.

It causes me grave concern that for the sake of setting up a controlled study and confirming the efficacy once and for all of this common sense approach to many medical conditions, the majority of the medical and nursing profession would rather maintain their ignorance indefinitely. How long will it take for this paradigm to become mainstream and help people with medical conditions that are never going to respond to the accepted models of treatment?

Perhaps only the people ignoring this can give us an answer.

Nevertheless, we must wait and see what happens now that you have tilted your bed.
If you could ask your doctor to take an interest in what you are doing he / she might be able to help monitor your condition more closely and record what happens or at least give us a comment in a few months time.

Initially there may be a shift of fluids down towards the ankles and some increase in swelling as the salty fluids migrate towards the lower limbs, but this should prove temporary while the lymphatic system begins to deal with the excess fluid more efficiently and moves it back into the blood stream where the kidneys will filter it and excrete it into the urine, hence the need to monitor urine output.

Sincerely

Andrew

Ely 12/08/2009 15:52:40
Hello Andrew!

While doing research on remedies for varicose veins, I came across your study. I am intrigued. I convinced my husband to put bricks under the head of our bed to incline it. It is currently up 5". I am 35 years old with three children (ages 10, 8 and 10 months) and I've had varicose veins for about 15 years. I've already had surgery (VNUS closure procedure)about 3 years ago and I've experienced new varicosities since then. I'm interested in your non-surgical approach. I am hoping I see an improvement. They are so unsightly and they've been aching as of late. I had my hubby take a pic of the worst offender that extends from the top of my inner left thigh down to my knee. After he took the picture, we slept inclined for the first time last night. My husband said he kept slipping down! LOL! I didn't experience that problem. It will take some getting used to sleeping like that, but it's worth a try. I've got nothing to lose, right? I will keep you informed of how it goes and if I notice any benefits. I plan on giving it at least 4 weeks and will post pictures of my leg before and after. Thanks!