Varicose Vein Oedema Inclined Bed Therapy Study Alternative to Surgery

alun006
09/09/2008 14:05:46 »

Hi Old Dragon

I must say, i am impressed with your write up on i.b.t. (Hope Andrew thinks the same.)

Well when i read the bit about wearing tight clothes in the groin area, i can not stress that i have had probs from this.

Please learn by my mistake, as this was pointed out at the start by andrew. I had complained of a blow-out in the groin area, which i thought was a lymph node swelling. Anyway i talked to andrew and he mentioned that i may be experiencing a night wedge effect,that could have also been causing the blow out aswell.

Now i did take this on board, but made the mistake of accessing my activite in bed when i was awake.

I feel a bit silly now, as i was experiencing a discomfort in that area which would sometimes be a problem and other times it was not.

This looking back was due to my positioning in bed not always being the same.

I am so glad that the penny dropped and i rectified this problem. Within the first night of doing commando, i am not getting this discomfort and hope to see the blow out at the top of my leg decrease now.

Sometimes new things can be misunderstood, but i am glad i relised whot was happening. and am now feeling much better.

(How i thought i could access the activities of my sleeping position when i was awake, i do not know LOL)

(Feeling slightly silly) alun

geordiejulie
01/10/2008 21:50:03 »

Hi Andrew,

I am Alun's wife (I must have sinned in a previous life!)
I have recently started on IBT and just wanted to post a few of the observations I have made over the past three weeks.
Firstly I have to say that if anyone was a cynic to this process it would have been me, like a lot of people we are all programmed like robots to believe that whatever a medical professional tells us must be right, so the idea that you should sleep inclined in the opposite direction to that which is conventional was a mystery to me. Alun began this process about 3 months ago and I have closely watched his progress. I have to say that the bed looked very uncomfortable but he stuck with it and has gained so much from this process. I have seen him gain confidence, a definite improvement in his varicose veins but above all he no longer has constant pains in his legs and this is something that has bothered him for some 30 years.
It was this that persuaded me to give it a go.

I am fortunate to have little medical problems but a brief description would be;

Asthma
Lower back pain
Pain in left hip on walking distance
Disturbed sleep patterns
Some spider veins

Now out of these the lower back pain has got to be the worst. In 2005 we purchased a very good quality bed, our excuse was 'look after your back you spend a lot of time in bed'
Well the back pain began and has continued every-night since.

Since beginning the IBT I have to say, and this is an honest evaluation, I have slept like a baby, it is complete bliss and definitely not uncomfortable.
I wake up pain free almost every morning and this is a huge improvement. I used to hold back from drinking before bed because I knew I would definitely be up during the night, now this is not the case. I can drink as much as I like and not wake up.

I am drinking a lot more, sometimes 3 litres of liquid(not tea or coffee) in a day.
I still get the pain in hips on walking a distance but I genuinely don't suffer for 2-3 days afterwards as I used to.
I definitely feel more energetic.
I have not noticed a significant difference in my asthma yet but this is difficult as it is worse during summer months or when I have a cold.

In the first few days I had really bad heads and spots and I can only assume that these symptoms were caused by the amount of toxins that were being flushed from my body at that time. The odd morning I will wake up with a headache that is similar to that you would have after a real good night out. On these mornings I know that I must drink a lot more and this clears.
I have felt tingles/nerve flutters in my legs and sometimes hands, more in the first week, but still occasionally.
My period normally follows the same pattern, though not always regular. As well as the usual mood swings etc, I will have back ache for a couple of days before hand and restless sleep, stomach ache for the first day, then I will have a headache for a day or so after the end of my period. This last one though came without any warning, and this is something that has only ever happened on one other occasion. Don't know at the minute whether this is good or not.
I have not noticed any significant change with the spider veins but I know it is early days and to me this is not that important.

Overall, I can honestly say I feel a lot healthier, I have more energy, I sleep so much better and don't regret it at all. I would definitely recommend it and urge people to try it. I am amazed that simply adjusting the angle of your bed can make such a difference.

Thanks Andrew!

Andrew K Fletcher
03/10/2008 17:59:24 »

geordiejulie

Thank you for your post relating to your own observations and your observations with Alun's legs, pain and general well-being.

All of the conditions you list have been reported to improve by other people over the years, so we can confidently predict that most of these should resolve in due course.

It was also interesting that you should notice changes in your monthly cycle, and I suspect this will continue.

Your post was a breath of fresh air for our study and is indicative that we are going to see many more changes that echo those from pilot studies into various conditions.

Your observation with tingling nerves is also interesting and reminds me of my many years of research and study into neurological conditions, including multiple sclerosis, spinal cord injury and Parkinson’s disease. These tingling pains were usually a precursor to significant recovery from neurological losses. Increase spasm was another indicator in these conditions. That’s another avenue for research later.

Keeping the study simple is difficult when so many important changes are taking place, it becomes difficult not to thunder off in another direction just to feed a hungry mind.

I have a feeling we are in for some real surprises over the coming months, providing we can find more people to join our study of course.

Please keep making notes and dating any observations as and when they happen and please come back and let us know about any changes you observe.

Some things to watch out for.

Changes in finger nails, half moons, quality, strength, shine, and general health in the nails. Changes in hair colour thickness, strength, body. Changes in your face even so taking a few pictures and comparing them to older pictures may reveal improvements in skin tone and muscle tone.

Do your hands and feet feel warmer now your bed is tilted? Do you feel less cold in bed?

Hangover is a good one, though not for one minute you put this to the test. Myself and others have reported that hangovers are not as troublesome on IBT.

Andrew

PS have updated the first post in this thread to include research from NASA

Tezzab4
04/10/2008 04:21:09 »

Right I'm back. I'm going to display 3 pics. 2 of my left leg which appears to be much worse than my right and 1 a brown patch on my right in the front of my calf which has not disappeared. This is indicative (IMO) of the brown staining that often occurs with varicose veins but may not be so evident from the photo but if u look closely u can see on the left leg it's browner the closer u get to the ankle.

Unfortunately these are actually after 3 nights of IBT as I didn't realise a study was still going as I was still scouting info on net when I started. I have only raised the bed 4 inches so far but I will raise it a further couple of inches today.

My calves have a circumference of 465 mm L & 467 mm R.

I have had my veins stripped when I was about 17 so I don't know how this will affect anything. I won't use any herbal supplements for 4 weeks at least and haven't been using any for at least a month.

Andrew I have read recently about ppl adding salt and minerals to their water which had gone through a reverse osmosis system and one saying that their vv have improved as a result. Is salt good or bad for the circulation and do you have suggestions on the amounts. I remember reading something about the water cure where they add salt to their water as well.

Can you actually blow veins out through excessive intra-abdominal pressure because I am sure I've done it through lifting weights?

thank you,
Tezza

Andrew K Fletcher
04/10/2008 08:47:44 »

Tezza

Great job of the pictures. These will prove useful in a few weeks time for comparison. 3 days of IBT at a lower angle of elevation should not have changed the appearance of the veins that much.
You are obviously the best judge of this.

Calf measurements good move also, though looking at your photographs you don’t appear to have oedema so the measurements won’t change as much as a person with oedema, but should prove interesting.

The surgery you had at 17 did it improve the outcome for you?

And did the herbal remedies you were taking have any affect?

Dissolved salts and sugars according to this new theory on circulation is what drives it and maintains the body. Modern diets often have excessive salt in them already, usually sodium chloride. Substituting the type of salt you use may improve your health.

We drink filtered rainwater now at home, apart from tasting like water should taste, it has very little (if any) mineral dissolved in it and as a result should act as a blood thinner over time without using any medication. Distilled water in desert countries has this effect on the blood.

Drinking more water would be a smart move on IBT as the angled bed does cause more solute to enter the bladder via the improved renal filtration, causing a detox from the blood.

RE venous Blowouts: It is highly probable that this may have happened. Alun reported a blowout observation that we now think was caused by his use of a support stocking and possibly aggravated by wearing under pants on an inclined bed as they pulled up into the groin area. Something others have noticed.

I had a blowout haemorrhoid while stupidly lifting a commercial sunbed down a flight of stairs with me at the top and two people at the bottom. My legs were spread wide due to the huge sunbed and I felt the vein blow out leaving me with an unpleasant bulge in the worst place you could get one. Thankfully this presents no problem for me any more. Your question re blowouts is a valid point.

Thanks Tezza

Tezzab4
04/10/2008 14:10:10 »

Andrew,

Thanks for your reply. I would have liked to have taken the pics at the start obviously as I feel that my legs are less tired and achy as they usually are (even after 3 days) and any swelling that I may have had may have gone down. The leg with the most veins does not have the extent of discolouration that the other one does which I think is caused by leakage from the veins.

The surgery was for the most part successful in that the veins I did have were more bulbous and torturous and they did go for the most part. After I got married I put on weight which probably affected their reappearance and I around 1996 noticed the staining of my calves more so on the right leg.

I don't look at my legs much so I can't really tell from appearance whether horse chestnut helped and did no measurements but I did notice my legs were no longer as tired and sore. I have heard that there might be some side affects to horse chestnut so sometimes I switch it with Paroven. Usually I take nothing as I am concerned about side affects and haven't really gotten into the habit of taking them although at one time I did for about 8 wks.

The blowout occurred after I was deadlifting about 120 kg. I felt something and looked down to where I felt something and saw the "blowout" which is that vein spider vein thing just in the inside of my leg above the knee. I did lift heavier weights a few years earlier so it might have been because I hadn't done any exercise for a while. It might be better to only train one limb at a time to get around this limitation of increased intra-abdominal pressure.

I still have the higher resolution pics but thought they would be too big to post them here. I'm not really familiar with linking them either as I've seen some people do. I'll have to play around with this forum posting options and will include them when I post some more pics in a weeks time.

What is your opinion on the best exercise for varicose veins? Would it be walking? Some ppl have suggested that their veins become more engorged after exercise.

cheers,
Tezza
Best exercise for varicose veins could be sleeping on an inclined bed, Exercising on an inclined bed even better! Making sure you don’t sit on cold hard surfaces, including the loo seat for too long as this restricts the size of the veins causing them to inflate more. (Odd how old wives tails have merit) Cycling, not sure about as constant pressure on saddle may exacerbate the veins, though this is an assumption on my part has having no evidence to support this.

Walking gets a big thumbs up! Though standing in one position for a long time could also cause the veins to swell due again to restricting vessels on the bottom of the foot. This also explains why people pass out while standing in cues, on guard duty, at weddings and funerals. Often portrayed as amusing there is I am sure a connection between this and stroke, maybe a precursor warning someone of their blood pressure problem?

Thinking about your mentioning of drinking reverse osmosis water. It could be beneficial having less solutes in the blood as this would make the blood more aggressive at dissolving / absorbing arterial deposits. Also thinner blood should reduce pressure inside the veins and areteries.

Andrew K Fletcher
10/10/2008 10:09:40 »

Re: Inclined sleep
From: Brenda and Dick
Sent:
10 October 2008 00:13:34
To:
Andrew K Fletcher

Feel free to post my previous notes from June.
We are still happily using IBT to control my GERD-related night-time cough and recurrent sinusitis, both of which completely disappeared with the use of the inclined bed. (although I have had to remain on Nexium for daytime GERD symptoms.) Both of us are 67 and we do not have varicose veins or leg swelling problems; that may be due to the IBT, who knows? I lower the bed when I change the bedding, and if I forget to raise it before bedtime, we notice the difference immediately. We definitely sleep better the inclined way. Thanks, Andrew. Brenda

Inclined sleep
From: Brenda and Dick

Sent:
07 June 2006 16:03:46
To:
Andrew K Fletcher

You, my dear, have done a very good thing in sharing your inclined sleep theory on the world-side web. It inspired me to seek a good solution to trying your suggestions.
Six nights sleeping on the inclined bed at about 4" & it is absolutely amazing. I am sleeping much more soundly & longer each night. Previously, I slept 3-5 hours max, but I am routinely sleeping 7-9 hours. I can't even begin to explain why! Most of the symptoms & pain related to my GERD have gone away; I am still taking the Nexium and will continue it for a few weeks before doing a trial without. I wake up with no aching joints, no stiff neck, and warm feet - for the first time in my 65 years of adult life. In addition, the night time swelling in my husband's feet and legs has improved dramatically.
I am encouraging my son and daughter-in-law to replace their own bedslats, since she suffers from untreated sleep apnea, as well as spinal compression problems. They will have to delay the purchase a bit as my son is undergoing extensive surgery next week and I think he would have difficulty getting on and off the bed post-operatively. But maybe in a few months...
Again, thank you, thank you for the creative and original thinking and may your study be remarkable! Brenda Parker


Re: RE: How is the inclined sleep study going?

Sent:
06 June 2006 12:26:54
To:
Andrew K Fletcher

Cc:

Yes, we are interested in participating in your study, although we are not dealing with any spinal cord disease. The conditions for which we are seeking relief by using the inclined sleep are sleep apnea, reflux disease and associated medical complications, including early lung changes.
After only 5 nights using the inclined sleep, there is dramatic improvement in both of those conditions; we will be interested to see if this continues.
We are strongly encouraging our 30 year old daughter who has MS to try the therapy.
Thanks for your intriguing theory & project. Brenda

alun006
11/10/2008 22:24:12 »
Hi Andrew

As a observation point, i have taken photos after still lying on my inclined bed (first thing in the morning.), as you know i have been doing this for several months and have observed a change in the varicose veins, including great results with very painful unpredictable knee pain that has been a issue since the age of 4 years.

As you can see they have a very comfortable appearance, and do not look very inflamed as i lie, after a nights sleep on ibt.

Just thought these pics, may have been of interest as they have very high quality resolution.

Thanks again andrew
alun006

P.S I went fell walking 3 days ago with my father. (10.5 miles up a hill.) Even thought i am cursing him because i have muscle pain in my legs and on other parts of my body, i am yet to get any signs of pain from vv or my knee pain that has been such a issue for such a long time. This has never happened before.

First, Have a look at the first picture i took of my right thigh varicose vein before treatment on i.b.t, (This was took in a standing position).



Right Thigh Varicose Vein, as i lie after a night on inclined bed therapy.


Left Calf Varicose Vein PICTURE 1, as i lie after a night on inclined bed therapy.


Left Calf Varicose Vein PICTURE 2, as i lie after a night on inclined bed therapy.


(I wanted to put two pictures to compare of my calf, as i had to move in the bed slightly for my wife to take them, and that may have caused a slight unsettling in the blood circulation under the skin.)

Andrew K Fletcher
14/10/2008 16:16:18 »

Alun

Your photographs prove beyond any shadow of doubt that IBT reduces venous pressure causing the veins to normalise in size. They are indeed truly remarkable photographs, considering that doctors and surgeons believe that raising the head end of the bed will cause the blood to pool and the veins to swell leading to oedema.

I have waited a long time to find a way of showing this effect while remaining on the inclined bed, not having varicose veins myself it has been difficult to find people who will provide photographic evidence.

If we compare your recent photographs with the first photograph you took prior to tilting your bed we can see a phenomenal difference in the varicose veins.

So if you can select the edit tab to your post and add the first photograph for comparison it will leave people in no doubt as to the efficacy of IBT for this condition.

Your knee pain and varicose vein pains are now as you state, have greatly improved, less painful and considerably less frequent than before, again indicating that there may be more to IBT than one would realise in a VV study.

As the veins remain relaxed and normalised over night, the veins should contract and resist internal pressures more. This is a gradual process and may take many more months in your case due to the severity of the swelling in the veins, before they sink to skin level completely.

You mentioned this is happening with the varicose blow out from the vein in your groin and that it has changed, becoming far less obvious now. Again great news Alun, thank you for mentioning this in our chat on MSN.

There are doctors and surgeons monitoring this thread. Would it be possible to get some comments from you?

Andrew