Varicose Vein Oedema Inclined Bed Therapy Study Alternative to Surgery

OldDragon
04/07/2008 16:26:48 »
First night sleeping on the inclined bed, there was no noticeable increase in the oedema in my ankles, Andrew, but the biggest change I noticed was that I woke actually feeling as if I'd had some measure of restorative sleep. That must be the first time in months that has happened to me. Could be coincidence, of course, but...?

There was also less aching from the arthritis in my feet, ankles and knees, despite the weather still being wet. I felt well energised all day. Too well, perhaps, as still wide awake at four the next morning, when I needed to up early for a hospital appointment by 7.30am. roll eyes

Second night of IBT was therefore a short one, and was woken before naturally ready to wake, so not aware of feeling well-rested. Still no ankle swelling to report, but it does seem that either two lots of different hospital scales or the ones at the local chemist's must be wrong, as they weighed me today at a different hospital and 14st! A couple of days ago I was 15st on the chemist's scales, and 15st 2lbs on those just before. roll eyes Will be glad when the right sized batteries for my own scales are in stock in town. I might then have a better idea of where I am at weight-wise and whether it is 4st or 5st I need to shed! Could be the weight gain was only 2lbs afterall and has been lost with the reduction of the oedema? There is still a bit of that present, and my calves are back up to 41cms, but the varicose veins on the right leg are becoming more visible now the swelling is reducing.

OldDragon

05/07/2008 10:40:44 »

My stats taken this morning - 3rd day of IBT:

BP 137/87
Pluse:75;
Body Fat: 49.6%;
Body Water: 35.1%;
Body Muscle: 47.3%;
Respiration 10 per min.
Calves: Left 40cms; Right: 41cms

I woke today feeling refreshed again, and naturally, after about 6 hours sleep. This is an unfamiliar feeling for me because, having FM, I normally feel as if I've not had enough sleep.

The aching in my ankles and knees has definitely reduced, but my lower spine (L4 - S1) where there is currently noticable acitivity relating to degenerative disc disease (as shown by scan) that pre-existed IBT, the aching is still present. The aching in my shoulders, wrists and elbows seems to have lessenned. (Weather here is still damp and overcast.)

Have taken the usual daily cod liver oil and glucosamine capsule, plus two aspirins today as anti-inflammatory.

Andrew K Fletcher

08/07/2008 07:51:24 »

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A lady on another forum asked a question about people standing for prolonged periods having problems with varicose veins and oedema. So I have included my reply to her because many people will be wondering about how this applies to the IBT Theory.

I think there is some merit in standing for prolonged periods of time causing veins to swell but it may not be as obvious why this is happening and is often attributed to pooling of blood.

But we have a circular system, so if blood is pooling around the lower limbs something must be restricting the flow through the veins and causing back pressure.

Could this be the pressure on the tissue surrounding the veins in the feet, caused by the weight of a person standing in one position for too long? If this were the case, then the circulation might be compromised further and cause a person to collapse? Weddings, where a groom or bride stand motionless for longer than usual sometimes succumb to this and have been featured on short videos on TV. Guards standing to attention have learned to move their weight from one foot to another to avoid collapsing on duty. Again simply moving the weight like this would suffice to relieve the pressure and allow the system to function better.

Another point is that when a person has been on their feet all day they like nothing better than coming home to put their feet up, especially when the literature advises them that this is the best thing to do.

A giraffe for example stands on its feet and seldom lies down at all. One would thing with its massive height and impressive circulation it too would have varicose veins, yet it does not. NASA in fact are studying the animal to try to understand why it does not have problems with bulging veins. In the Giraffes leg the veins are closer to the bone than in humans and therefore have more muscle and tissue to hold in the pressure (It Is Thought by the NASA Scientists) Yet they still have to solve how those veins develop closer to the bones in the Giraffe. Could it be that the pressure inside the veins does not increase as predicted by the animal’s height? Indeed this appears to be the case. So if the pressure is much lower in the veins than the surrounding muscle and tissue the veins will not bulge and oedema will not form. But more to the point the pressure inside the muscles and skin will be higher than the vein and this should be able to explain why the veins remain closer to the animals bones while the animal grows to adult size. An analogy of this is a bench I once saw secured to a tree for many years. The tree had grown around the bench and a huge portion of it was inside the tree completely engulfed by the trees production line of tiny tubes we see as the grain in timber.

I have added pictures from Old Dragon in one of my posts next to her original photographs for ease of comparison. These now photographs taken 5 days after Inclined Bed Therapy Began show a definite relief in skin tightness resulting from a migration of fluid from the affected limbs back into the main circulation as predicted.

Old Dragon’s Doctor predicted a significant increase in swelling which clearly has not occurred!

alun006

09/07/2008 07:53:27 »

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Hi Andrew

I hope you find the results of the photos taken of my right thigh useful, can i say that when i took the photos i made sure that i picked a particular time in the day to do it and in a room that had a nice amount of light. ( in this case the kitchen.)

Would you agree andrew that when taking photos of skin and veins, this may be a good way of doing it as shadows can hide the results very easily, aswell as sticking to taking a picture straight on, rather than using different angles.

Also Andrew, I found have that having a daily dairy has helped alot putting thoughts down even when you think they may not be useful, are great to refer to. As it is surprising how you can forget important things if it is not written down.

Thankyou Alun


Andrew K Fletcher

08/07/2008 19:59:50 »


Alun's photo after two weeks of IBT. Note the veins are fading from the top first. And they are becoming thinner as a result of avoiding a flat bed.

Link to High res photograph:
i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb31/Andrew_...eek-vein-photos2.jpg

OldDragon
09/07/2008 11:57:56 »

Those photos are really impressive, Alun. I've tried to take mine out on the back yard and when the flash on the camera doesn't kick in. It's been a case of trying to get the shots myself between showers, hence the odd angles. Lol

Anyway, after the first full week of IBT, here at the latest stats:

BP: 127/76
Pluse: 78
Body Fat: 49.7%;
Body Water: 35%;
Body Muscle: 47.2%;
Respiration 9 per min.
Calves: Left 39.5cms; Right: 39.5cms.
Weight: 14st. 11.2lbs (Stripped and taken using my own scales.)
BMI (Body mass index): 33.3.
Hours sleep previous night: 5 - woke naturally feeling refreshed again.
Pain level/location/s: Low grade, dull ache L4 - S1 region of spine.

Medication taken so far today: 1 soluable aspirin. (Having reduced to 1 per day from average of two every other day as experiment.)
Suppliments: 1 x 1 a day cod liver oil & glucosamine capsule. 1 x milk thistle capsule, 1 x cup nettle tea.

Weather in the valley: Very WET!
Find us on Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/InclinedBe

Andrew - My Dad, as of today, is home from the hospital after having a heart attack and triple bypass surgery and having his aortic heart valve replaced. I've been telling my mother about the Inclined Bed Therapy and she wants to give it a try.

I'm curious to know whether there are any conditions where IBT would be considered unsafe.

He's still very weak and is on oxygen. His feet are also quite swollen tonight, but he's also been up moving around probably more than he should have.

HI, Your father should be fine on IBT. Torbay Hospital now advise heart patients to put their beds on an angle.

It should improve his breathing and increase the amount of oxygen in the blood and also remove the oedema from his legs over a few weeks. It will slow down his heart rate by 10 to 12 beats per minute and his respiration by 4-5 breaths per minute compared to sleeping flat. This is due I think to a steady stronger heart beat emerging that empties the heart properly and this takes a little longer than a shallow beat. Same applies to the lungs, they appear to inflate and deflate more effectively on Inclined Bed Therapy again this takes a little longer than shallow breathing.

Circulation definately improves and can be observed with skin colour changes in hands and feet and also a warmer skin to touch confirms improvements in circulation. It has also been confirmed by a nurse at Derriford Hospital recovery room electronically.

RE unsafe: There may be a problem getting in and out of the bed for people that are very frail and unsteady on their feet to begin with so careful supervision is required during transfer from a wheel chair to the bed and the reverse.

Also where a collapsed vein is suspected, p[osibly due to varicose vein surgery then the affected limb may show signs of poorer circulation due to the lack of pressure to keep the collapsed vein open.

This is why I have asked for people who have not had surgery to come forward so that we can avoid this problem albeit very rare. I have only heard of one case where IBT has decreased circulation to a limb with a collapsed vein.

Important to avoid the feet pressing on a footboard as constant pressure during the night could comprimise circulation in the toes and feet as the bones apply pressure on the tissue against a foot board. So make sure he does not slide down to the bottom of a bed with a footboard.

A prediction for your Father using IBT.

Metal heart valves can be heard and almost always have audible fibrilation and often miss beats during flat bed rest.

Sometimes a blue tone in the skin appears on the lips, fingers, toes and nose indicating poor circulation following these implants.

All of which will resolve on inclined bed therapy in 4 weeks.

So if you could confirm your fathers current observations following surgery re his heart rate blood pressure,respiration rate, weight etc and share them with us we should be able to see marked changes if he were to test this theory.

Andrew

alun006

Andrew

Could you give me any more information on the relationship with a callapsed veins and surgery, was interested to see this mentioned in the above thread.

Are patients that have had surgery for varicose veins, more prone to this even many years after as well ?

I know that if a patient has had surgery once on a vv, that the procedure is more involved next time, if it is not successful.

alun

Andrew K Fletcher
13/07/2008 10:44:23 »
Sorry Alun I was advised of this over the telephone during a pilot study invloving spinal cord injury. It was an observation made by a lady who noticed her foot became blue when inclined and later confirmed she had an ongoing problem with a collapsed vein caused by varicose vein surgery.

OldDragon
11/07/2008 18:49:25 »

Carolyn, I do hope that your father feels better very soon. My mother had a quadruple by-pass and valve replacements some years ago, and made a marvellous recovery.

These are some of the things that I have observed during the 8 nights Ive now been sleeping on an inclined bed.

During 7 of the 8 nights, I have slept for at least 4 - 5 hours and woken naturally feeling REFRESHED by the sleep! That is a big change for me, as I often struggle to sleep at all and for days at a time and, having fibromyalgia, almost always wake feeling as if I've not slept at all. I actually feel as if I have some energy for a change... and that's a bit of a novelty for me!

The small, bobbly blue veins in my right ankle that resulted after a riding accident when I was 16 have disappeared!

The oedema in my legs/calves has reduced by up to 5.5cms and my legs have not been swelling during the day.

Tenderness in the area of my varicose veins has reduced considerably, and I have even risked kneeling down to do things a couple of times and with no problem at all. (In the past this action has usually resulted in a bout of phlebitis.)

The pain and inflammation, plus the fibro related 'hot spots' in my upper back (thoracic and lower cervical vertebrae) and shoulders has not affected me. (Immediately prior to the trial, I felt as if the area had been scalded and could hardly bear even a light T-shirt on that.)

The arthritic pain in my feet, ankles and knees has disappeared!

The low grade aching in my lumbar spine - L4 - S1 - appears to be reducing slightly now. (And an x-ray taken of that very recently showed considerable osteo arthritic activity and evidence of degenerative disc disease.)

My blood pressure has been steadily reducing - similarly my pulse rate and respiration.

I have lost a little over 3lbs in weight, and without any particular changes to my diet! (Which is a reasonably healthy eating plan, with a few naughty indulgences here and there. )

So far, I've not noticed any negatives. Even the dogs haven't complained about the change to the angle of their sleeping arrangements.

Would I go back to sleeping on a horizontal bed...? Not if I can help it!

OldDragon
12/07/2008 13:47:07 »
I think I over-did things yesterday and my lower back has really kicked off again today, and despite about 6 hours sleep last night. I know that you mentioned the back ache could get worse temporarily, but hard to say if it's as you predicted or because I pushed myself yesterday. Either way, have dug out an old back support today to see if that will help a bit. Have a fair bit of work/listing to get done today. Not done stats, as it's proven impossible to sit quietly even for 20 minutes without interruptions.

alun006

12/07/2008 16:30:47 »
Old Dragon I hope you feel better soon, sounds like you are having a hard day.

I know your health probs, can not be compared to mine. But you may find that improvement happens quiet quickly at first, but then is not noticed as much for sometime many days after.

This is when you can get abit down and feel that was it working aswell as you thought.

I have went through spouts of feeling up then down, i think it can be quiet emotional at times. analysing everything that happens.

Hope you get well enough to carry on with the incline.

Regards Alun

OldDragon

12/07/2008 17:47:54 »

Cheers, Alun, although I'm not considering stopping the IBT at all. Certainly not because of an aching lower back. I've lived with that problem for many years and am hoping that, long term, the IBT will benefit it. grin

Having a busy, rather than hard day, and have just walked down and back to see to the horses, and to try and get a bit of fresh air and exercise. Could have taken the car but trying to keep up with some simple exercise ideas, aching back or not. wink Lol I'd probably be more likely to get annoyed with myself than feel down if I didn't. happy

One thing I didn't mention before, is that my haemorrhoids have been behaving really well since inclining the bed. grin

I find it really interesting analysing the things that happen. The difference in your photos is quite amazing, and my mother has a varicose vein in a similar position to you, and has asked me to print off details from this thread now and show her your photos. She's going to incline her bed and keep us updated via my brother on her progress. Besides the veins and oedema, she also has an ulcer that has been troubling her for a long time and has been infected with MRSA, too.

OldDragon
14/07/2008 11:10:23 »

Just to give you the promised stats and after the 12th night of IBT...

BP 109/79
Pluse:71;
Body Fat: 49.8%;
Body Water: 35.1%;
Body Muscle: 47.2%;
Respiration 9 per min.
Calves: Left 41cms; Right: 41cms.
Weight: 14st 12lbs. (Can't believe I've gained a little, and after all that exercise yesterday! Will have to pretend it's muscle, even if the other stats don't agree!

No changes in medication/suppliments.

Andrew K Fletcher

14/07/2008 19:37:17 »

Al Your Stats are looking very interesting and Following the same pattern that Karen reported when she tilted her bed. Many others have also reported the blood pressure reductions. Your pulse is also fining a lower rest rate.

I noticed on your start photographs that you wear some kind of stocking that leaves a visible pressure mark in your skin. Try not wearing these types of socks and if you do need to wear them cut the elastic at the top. This should help move the fluid faster.