40 dollar inclined bed frame ibt 1Inclined Bed Therapy:  Sleeping Inclined To Restore and Support Your Health For Free.  Fascinating Science, Discovery, History and Medical Research In Circulation And Posture, by Andrew K Fletcher.  Read the Success Stories.  Check the Forum.

How do Trees Really lift Water to their Leaves?

8 years 7 months ago #606 by Andrew
As you are generating a small amount of electricity it could be used to open and close valves to regulate pressure, prevent the column of water from collapsing while cavitations are refilled and to divert flow into cavitations.

If we stretched a closed loop of tubing capable of withstanding the pressures without collapse or ballooning to the top of the tallest tree, filled it with water and injected 1 mil of coloured salt solution at the top of the closed loop, we would see a complete rotation of the water inside the tube, now if we had one open ended tube the same height and joined at the bottom to the circuit and injected say 10 mils of coloured salt solution at the top of the loop that has been opened to the atmosphere via the added tube we would not only see rotation of water but we should see that water exudes from the top of the opened end allowing water to pass to the evaporation chamber. Making use of the return flow in the upward rotating flow on the juxtapose side of the complete loop to draw water back in could be achieved by using an outer tube to represent the bark of the tree and filling this tube with water. Having a sleeve of water around the tubes will provide a means to repair and prevent cavitations.

I have already shown that you can use a much smaller pipe as a down flow, even two pipes returning flow and one pipe flowing down.

Thank you for recognising my work :)

Where are you based?

Gravity, Learn to live with it, because you can't live without it!

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

8 years 7 months ago #607 by Andrew
Your diagram could also represent a human cerebro-spinal fluid circuit. Which is where my research got really exciting for me.

There is going to be a bulging effect at the bottom membrane when the salts are released to flow down inducing a positive pressure, and I'm not sure that having a clean water bath at the bottom will not cause a dialysis effect from the membrane polluting the clean water?

Gravity, Learn to live with it, because you can't live without it!

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

8 years 7 months ago - 8 years 7 months ago #608 by Andrew
If we take some tea leaves and boil them then squeeze the solutes out we can see that salts and sugars are stored in the leaves. However, gravity will always make sure that denser solutes are kept on the move so there is a constant flushing out of these salts and sugars as they are moved to sink areas, like fruits and seeds and stored as timber as tubes become redundant and more are manufactured.

Deciduous trees during the fall when the leaves are shed move solutes to the roots and higher than normal concentrations are located in the roots in autumn.

I am convinced that when the leaves fall the pressure changes in the sap to positive and forces the salts and sugars down to the roots. I have also postulated that leeching from the roots during the fall may serve as a detox ready for the spring. And this positive pressure would surely apply to the increased root growth during the fall. Let’s not forget that minerals are shed with the leaves also. During the fall the salts would remain very sluggish as transport is arrested. During the spring the warmer climate begins to change the density of the sap enabling it to circulate before the leaves are formed.

Fruits and seeds being shed also serve to remove concentrated sugars and minerals and could be considered as providing a renal function.

There is also evidence of concentrations of heavy metals around the roots of plants growing in salt marsh. Could this be evidence for leeching from the roots in addition to leeching from the soils to the roots? Could the regular influx of brackish water in estuaries stimulate dialysis effect at the semi-permeable membrane in the roots?

Hope it's ok to copy your question to this thread as the answers are pertinent to my theory? If you object let me know and I will remove them.

Bob :

Unfortunately trees are not selective enough as they are killed quite quickly with an introduction of heavy metals to their water supply, or for that matter an abundance of salt!
The questions still remain. After evaporation the trees are left with a heavy concentration of salts and minerals at their tops. Are all these minerals absorbed and considered as nutritious for a tree? or Does a tree have a kind of limbic/kidney/liver system that stores any unused solutes? or Does a tree send the unused solutes back down to the roots?
And another question. If a tree hates air getting into its plumbing, how do the leaves manage to let the relatively large H2O molecules out while keeping the smaller oxygen molecules from entering? Any help on these questions would be most appreciated!

Lmnol. Ocmno~r 43(2), 1998. 245-252
0 1998. by the American Society of Limnology and Oceanography. Inc.
Metal-rich concretions on the roots of salt marsh plants: Mechanism and rate of formation Bjorn Sundby INRS-Octanologie, University du Qubec, Rimouski, QC G5L 3Al
Carlos Vale IPIMAR, Avenida Brasilia, 1400 Lisboa, Portugal Zsabel CaCador and Fernando Catarino
Departemento de Biologia Vegetal, Universidade de Lisboa, Campo Grande C2, Lisboa, Portugal
Maria-JoLio Madureira and Miguel Caetano IPIMAR

The roots of the vascular plant Spartina maritima, growing in the saltmarshes of the Tagus Estuary, Portugal, are surrounded by tubular concretions whose diameter can reach >0.2 cm. Concretions are also found scattered within the sediment matrix in and below the root zone. The concretions comprise 4% (DW) of the sediment and contain 11.7 2 1.6% iron compared to 4.9 -C 0.3% iron in the sediment in which they are found. They are formed by the precipitation of iron oxides in the pores between the sediment grains; this has filled about one-sixth of the originally available pore space. To produce the concretions, the plants have extracted 0.25% Fe from the anoxic bulk sediment and concentrated it into the oxidized microenvironment surrounding each root. A mass-balance model using cylindrical geometry shows that the observed concretion density can be produced by a network of roots with l-cm spacing. The space between the roots limits the amount of Fe that is available to a given root and thus
determines the size of the individual concretion. Field observations and mathematical modeling show that plants can produce concretions on their roots in the space of a few weeks. The rhizoconcretions are 5-10 times enriched in Cd, Cu, Pb, and Zn with respect to the sediment surrounding them, and the smaller diameter concretions are more enriched than the larger ones. The preferential enrichment of the smaller diameter concretions, which was not observed for Fe and Mn, is independent of depth in the sediment for Cd and Cu; however, for Zn and Pb, the
preferential enrichment is most pronounced within the upper trace metal-contaminated sediment layer. The rhizoconcretions have acquired their load of metals via diffusion from the surrounding sediment. In the case of Fe and Mn, the concentration gradient that drives the diffusion is maintained by the precipitation of insoluble oxides. In the case of Cd, Cu, Zn, and Pb, the mechanism that maintains a concentration gradient toward the surface of the root is not know, but our data show that S. maritima is capable of mobilizing trace metals dispersed in reducing
anoxic estuarine sediment and concentrating them into the distinct oxidized microenvironments that surround the roots.

Gravity, Learn to live with it, because you can't live without it!
Last edit: 8 years 7 months ago by Andrew.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

8 years 7 months ago #609 by Andrew
We have been doing geochemistry surveys using needles from alpine fir with some good success. After several orientation surveys, it was determined that new growth in the early summer best concentrates the minerals. We collect around 500 ml (1/2 quart) of needles per site. Analyze for Sb, Ag, Pb, Zn, Cu and As- searching for antimony-silver veins and gold-arsenic veins in an area of almost impenetrable undergrowth. Seems to work very well for known veins and have found some anomalous areas that bear further investigation.
With your discussion, should we also be looking at roots during other times of year as potential mineral collectors- or do you think that collecting soils in the vicinity of the trunks might work as well (if your process enriches the area around the trunk in heavy metals)? Any thoughts?

Gravity, Learn to live with it, because you can't live without it!

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

8 years 7 months ago #610 by Andrew
Reply #159 on: 09/05/2008 14:11:05 »


Bass, thats a great idea :) The roots would contain these minerals in higher concentrations during the fall in deciduous trees, colloids containing metals should also be found in higher concentrations in the soil close to the roots, as trees will inevitably find trace netals and minerals with their long reaching roots and should therefore give a reliable indication of what lies in the ground beneath them. Needles on the other hand would be less rich in metals as they move due to gravity down the tree once concentrated and become locked away in the trunks and branches rather than stagnating in the needles, so taking samples close to the roots might be more accurate than collecting needles and you may have missed some important deposits. Scraping the outer part of the root for analysis should provide some interesting data, and you don't have to go to the lowest roots in order to do this because we should be looking for concentrations that have gone around the trees circuit and been excreted into the soil. Deciduous might prove better than pine as the fall changes the location of solutes due to the circulation being arrested.

"We located a region of the live fungus only 400 by 400 microns in area (a micron is a millionth of a meter) where fluorescence revealed the presence of zinc," says Lamble. Graphs of x-ray absorption at electron orbitals, such as an atom's innermost K orbital, show steep rises called edges; edge shapes and positions are specific to individual elements and molecular bonds. "When we scanned the beam over the zinc K edge, we could see that the zinc was concentrated in regions only a few microns across. The shape of the K edge in the fungus sample matches the very distinctive standard graph for zinc oxalate."

Geraldine Lamble, an x-ray spectroscopist at the ALS.

Because the fungus stabilizes zinc in oxalate, which is indissoluble, the ectomycorrhiza can form a hard shell that keeps zinc away from the roots. "The fungus story has a happy ending," Lamble says. "Without human interference, ectomycorrhizae bind metal and stop it from leaching lower in the forest soil."

At a hundred thousand root tips per square meter, ectomycorrhizae make an effective sponge for toxic compounds. But, says Lamble, "you wouldn't want to be digging that stuff up."

Let me know what you find Bass.

Gravity, Learn to live with it, because you can't live without it!

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

8 years 7 months ago #611 by Andrew

I'm based in Taiwan, and I'm presently snowed under with Mid Term exam papers to mark!

We really should try to get the advocates of osmosis, 'being the primary force for the transport of water in trees', to explain away the accumulation of heavy solutes at the tops of trees.

You seem to be providing them with a way to discount the 'down' flow in the phloem pipes as the driving force by suggesting that it is the fruits, nuts and seeds that provide the 'sink' for the solutes.

How do the leaves prevent oxygen entering the tree's plumbing while letting the larger H2O molecules out?

kind regards

PS You can do what you wish with my quotes, but I've decided not to hijack your thread with our artificial Tree (I did so because at the time it seemed to be very quiet here) and will keep my thoughts on that on the 'creating electricity from global warming thread' Which I now might have to make more mathematically formal to keep the curious fluid dynamic experts on board!

Keep up the good fight!

Gravity, Learn to live with it, because you can't live without it!

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

8 years 7 months ago #612 by Andrew
@ Bob (AKA Blaine)
The ever expanding roots are obviously the main sink, but we cannot deny that there is an accumulation of sugars and minerals deposited in the fruits and seeds, which fall or are eaten from the tree providing an exit point. Furthermore an apple for example acts as a kidney and bladder as solutes are flowing through it. Picture a T junction representing the flow through the branch as the horizontal part of the T and the solutes being denser flow down into the fruit causing less dense fluid to flow out of the fruit back into the horizontal flow along the branch leaving behind the sugars and minerals to ripen and sweeten the fruit.

The leaves do not prevent oxygen from entering during gas exchange to the atmosphere. It is the positive pressure and increased head of water shown in the short video on Youtube that provides the leaf with the ability to exude water from the leaf.

Picture a U tube of water filled with sap. Alter the density on the xylem side at the top and the water level in the less dense side exudes out of the other side. In the active part of the tree, instead of a U tube we have a multiple conduit system with each tubes contents affecting other tubes contents. For example, cavitations form in a xylem affecting the tension and negative pressure temporarily shutting down the circulation within changing the pressure to predominantly positive causing a reversal of the flow which inevitably changes the tension in juxtapose xylem and phloem. The gas bubbles now are compressed and more dilute sap is pulled into the cavitated xylem to replace the sap that was pushed out as cavities formed bringing the tube back into service as an active predominantly upwards transport to the leaves. It’s a bit like playing an organ except instead of having fingers to operate the valves we have pressure changes and density changes to regulate the flow. So to inspect a leaf to find the mechanism for selective diffusion will never provide anyone with the answers, after all it is just a leaf.


Quote from: YourUncleBob on Today at 03:03:06
Thanks Andrew,

I'm siding with you with regards to what happens to all the heavy minerals at the tops of the trees. I know that you're not a fan of the theory that says it's osmosis that provides the main power for lifting water to the tops of the trees, but to give your ideas more solidity we need to let the advocates of osmosis explain away the accumulation of these solutes at the tops of trees!

Any ideas on how the leaves prevent oxygen entering the tree's plumbing while letting out the larger water molecules?

I am not a fan of the current cohesion tension theory either, Trees are subject to the same problem that Galileo had with the 24 metre limit for drawing water up by suction. To say that water molecules evaporate and this causes the next water molecule to replace it is absurd. It’s a way of clouding the fact that we are still saying trees suck water from their roots and spit it out at the leaves. You cannot apply suction to the top of a tube and draw water up over the 24 metre limit, whether it is in an artificial tube or inside a living or dead tree. We cannot bend the rules to suit a paper. The paper must always bend to wither fit the existing rules or re-write the rules that fit with all of the other papers.

To give us some idea of the problems the literature faces we need to look at this brilliant simple experiment involving a vertical suspended vine. Note the boiling effect. I have also observed this inside my many experiments at Brixham.

The flow rates observed in trees during active transpiration is impressive and always has needed an explanation that addresses observed bulk flow rates.

· The rattan vine may climb as high as 150 ft on the trees of the tropical rain forest in northeastern Australia to get its foliage into the sun. When the base of a vine is severed while immersed in a basin of water, water continues to be taken up. A vine less than 1 inch in diameter will "drink" water indefinitely at a rate of up to 12 ml/minute.
If forced to take water from a sealed container, the vine does so without any decrease in rate, even though the resulting vacuum becomes so great that the remaining water begins to boil spontaneously. (The boiling temperature of water decreases as the air pressure over the water decreases, which is why it takes longer to boil an egg in Denver than in New Orleans.)

Gravity, Learn to live with it, because you can't live without it!

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

8 years 7 months ago #613 by Andrew
Pressure Flow Hypothesis
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Pressure Flow Hypothesis is the best-supported theory to explain the movement of food through the phloem.[1] It was proposed by Ernst Münch, a German plant physiologist in 1930.[2] A high concentration of organic substance inside cells of the phloem at a source, such as a leaf, creates a diffusion gradient that draws water into the cells. Movement occurs by bulk flow; phloem sap moves from sugar sources to sugar sinks by means of turgor pressure. A sugar source is any part of the plant that is producing or releasing sugar. During the plant's growth period, usually during the spring, storage organs such as the roots are sugar sources, and the plant's many growing areas are sugar sinks. The movement in phloem is bidirectional, whereas, in xylem cells, it is unidirectional (upward).

After the growth period, when the meristems are dormant, the leaves are sources, and storage organs are sinks. Developing seed-bearing organs (such as fruit) are always sinks. Because of this multi-directional flow, coupled with the fact that sap cannot move with ease between adjacent sieve-tubes, it is not unusual for sap in adjacent sieve-tubes to be flowing in opposite directions.

While movement of water and minerals through the xylem is driven by negative pressures (tension) most of the time, movement through the phloem is driven by positive hydrostatic pressures. This process is termed translocation, and is accomplished by a process called phloem loading and unloading. Cells in a sugar source "load" a sieve-tube element by actively transporting solute molecules into it. This causes water to move into the sieve-tube element by osmosis, creating pressure that pushes the sap down the tube. In sugar sinks, cells actively transport solutes out of the sieve-tube elements, producing the exactly opposite effect.

Some plants however appear not to load phloem by active transport. In these cases a mechanism known as the polymer trap mechanism was proposed by Robert Turgeon[3]. In this case small sugars such as sucrose move into intermediary cells through narrow plasmodesmata, where they are polymerised to raffinose and other larger oligosaccharides. Now they are unable to move back, but can proceed through wider plasmodesmata into the sieve tube element.

The symplastic phloem loading is confined mostly to plants in tropical rain forests and is seen as more primitive. The actively-transported apoplastic phloem loading is viewed as more advanced, as it is found in the later-evolved plants, and particularly in those in temperate and arid conditions. This mechanism may therefore have allowed plants to colonise the cooler locations.

Organic molecules such as sugars, amino acids, certain hormones, and even messenger RNAs are transported in the phloem through sieve tube elements.

[edit] References
^ Translocation of Food
^ Münch, E (1930). "Die Stoffbewegunen in der Pflanze". Verlag von Gustav Fischer, Jena: 234.
^ Turgeon, R (1991). "Symplastic phloem loading and the sink-source transition in leaves: a model". VL Bonnemain, S Delrot, J Dainty, WJ Lucas, (eds) Recent Advances Phloem Transport and Assimilate Compartmentation.

Gravity, Learn to live with it, because you can't live without it!

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

8 years 7 months ago #614 by Andrew
Andrew big thanks for your useful links,

However looking carefully at the inner structure of the leaf it seems the gases are exchanged in the fleshy middle and are kept away from the incoming water/solute loaded veins.

Still busy here will get back at this next week.

in the meantime Something to consider when worrying about preventing cavitations


Some salts prevent the coalescence of small bubbles.
Higher concentrations (often about 0.1M) of many, but not all, salts prevent the coalescence of small gas bubbles (recently reviewed [672]) in contrast to the expectation from the raised surface tension and reduced surface charge double layer effects (DLVO theory). Higher critical concentrations are required for smaller bubble size [599]. This is the reason behind the foam that is found on the seas (salt water) but not on lakes (fresh water). The salts do not directly follow the Hofmeister effects with both the anion and cation being important with one preferentially closer to the interface than the other; for example, excess hydrogen ions [1205] tend to negate the effect of halides [622]. The explanation for this unexpected phenomenon is that bubble coalescence entails a reduction in the net gas-liquid surface, which acts as a sufficiently more favorable environment for the one out of a pair of ions rather than the bulk when their concentration is higher than a critical value. It has been proposed that anions and cations may be divided into two groups α and β with α cations (Na+, K+, Mg2+) and β anions (ClO4-, CH3CO2-, SCN-) ) avoiding the surface and α anions (OH-, Cl-, SO42-) and β cations (H+, (CH3)4N+) attracted to the interface; αα and ββ anion-cation pairs then cause inhibition of bubble coalescence whereas αβ and βα pairs do not [1305]. These groupings do not behave as bulk-phase ionic kosmotropes and chaotropes, which indicates the different properties of bulk water to that at the gas-liquid surface. It is likely that the ions reside in the interfacial region, between the exterior surface layer and interior bulk water molecules, where the hydrogen bonding is naturally most disrupted [605]. A similar phenomenon is the bubble (cavity) attachment to microscopic salt particles used in microflotation, where chaotropic anions encourage bubble formation [758].

Interestingly, the concentration of salt in our bodies corresponds to the minimum required for optimal prevention of bubble coalescence [622]. As small bubbles are much less harmful than large bubbles, this fact is very useful.

the references can be found at the above web site.

The last little bit I highlighted, maybe of particular interest to you as you seem to have thought a lot about homosapien flows!

kind Regards Blaine

Gravity, Learn to live with it, because you can't live without it!

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.