IBT and gallstones.

I know what you are saying and it could well be they are liver stones, and I am open to that possibility but many things for me point more to the GI that accumulates the smaller liver debris as I stated quite clearly earlier.

After learning more about the anatomy of the liver, and communicating to another specialist, and also other medical experts too (I havent forgotten you are also a medical expert) and knowing that without doubt these very same things can come from the GI system after consuming such a volume of fat in one sitting, then for me I prefer the explanation I gave earlier...BTW, I have also hunted game in my life and also know the smell of and look of bile - accidently burst a few bile sacks too - but then the presence of bile would have to be there whether something came from the liver or not, simply because of the amount that is needed by the liver to even attempt to process that amount of fat - remember, 1600 calories of fat alone in one sitting, 180grams is almost three times the daily RDA!

Also its not entirely correct to say that things like these never come out of people doing GI elimination protocols...even pure water fasting can produce these dramatic effects of black hollow tubes coming out that were stuck to the small intestines for years, even keeping the shape...talk with Tony Pantalleresco and he will tell you many of the different disgusting things that come out when doing many different types of GI elimination...

I think we both have covered a good amount here and show that there is a possibility that these could be large liver stones, just as easily as they could be accumulated smaller liver stones and debris (from the liver) that collects into a large ball of mass while inside the intestines, that are also coated in more than normal amounts of bile.

My only disagreement with you here like I said from the start, is that I don't believe its likely that golf ball sized lumps are being removed from the bile ducts, and for me its more likely they are lumps formed that way in the GI tract from smaller debris ejected out of the liver...whereas you are absolutely certain that all this is 100% liver stones...again not an approach I prefer to take personally mate.

I also dont agree with naysayers on other websites when they dismiss liver cleanses entirely as being simply the entire remains of coalesced olive oil...that type of thinking is too simplistic and things are rarely that simple in health as I know you know this too.

I simply say SOME of it is unprocessed olive oil, and some of it is liver debris and small stones...I cannot personally hold the view that ALL the stool remains that look like stones are from the liver...that for me is less likely...I think the even fact that all these hundreds of fatty balls "just keep coming" from such a relatively small volume in the liver, even after a hundred liver cleanses at a rate of one per month, also lends to the idea that some of that volume of stools is down to the 1600 calories of fats you consume to do the flush...what goes in will come out.

I once again typed far far too much to thoroughly explain my point and hope you do understand what my stance is...that I do agree with you 100% that they are definitely beneficial, but I err on the side of caution to believe something so big is coming out of the ducts in one go...I also would not personally go overboard and do hundreds of them, but I will no doubt be doing a few over the next year and report my findings to you all.

I think everything is possible but I side with what is more likely. That is my approach now and had I used that approach a years ago I would have saved a lot of money - even within the last two years.

Thanks for this discussion Ozone, it has been interesting and I hope people reading this will find the points of interest to them as well.

I know you understand what I am saying but its not always easy to convey these things when reading and writing large posts.

Also understand that I fully respect your opinion as a medical expert and you know more than most doctors and even most people, but I will always make up my own mind from the opinions of more than just one medical expert.

All good stuff.

Well said mate. Other people claim to have taken the stones for lab analyses and proved they were from the liver. Others say this showed they were soap made from consuming the oil. Note people doing extended colon cleanses eventually also get the stones coming out. Now...all arguments aside...maybe you will try one another day. For me, doesn't matter which explanation is correct. I will probably continue doing a few more...but the last one I did got out not even ten 'stones' ..so something definitely is going on with the IBT.

Yes that is the original point of your creating this thread that is of interest to me...we got a little sidetracked in the details!
IBT is clearly doing something interesting in that you no longer produce that amount of stones...this is where it would be far more essential to study more people doing liver cleanses who are also on IBT compared with those not...not an easy task really as most people are not even reporting about IBT!

Just had a look at that link you gave, and that is one damn congested gall bladder! Must have taken many years and terrible health to get that bad.

I am going for an Ultra Sound scan next week to rule out gallstones for my chest problems...will let you know the results.

Yes let me know the results. Thing is though ultra sound might not show soft cholesterol lumps...there isn't enough density contrast. One of the issues that causes all the controversy....stones only show when they harden and calcify.
The medical debate is also a good analogy for emotional plague...you would think people would sort themselves out...it's easy to prove what exactly is coming out of the bum during a liver flush..instead people argue and get emotional when they suspect they may be wrong all along....then they don't even try it or have experience with it. Strange world hey.

I know ultra sound may not produce results but it will show obvious stones if they are calcified, which is only reason I am having it done, and also if it shows nothing I will not assume I have none - clearly everyone has them.

Regards the medical debate, I assume you mean the naysayers on other sites when you speak about emotional plague, and not my valid arguments clearly and well presented in two long posts...nothing emotional about my posts there...just my logical conclusion reached by not making definite assertions about where something is coming from without true scientific visuals, which is virtually impossible in this current barbaric society with its simplistic medical theories.

I personally don't label anyone else as having emotional plague simply because they disagree with me, and I also understand that we actually are all emotionally plagued...all of us...Personally, I don't like to use the term emotional plague because its just not specific enough, and somewhat an umbrella term used to encompass several different things for why people have so many belief problems...tradition, indoctrination and traumatic births all cause emotional plague...ADHD is another umbrella term used to lump every kid and adult suffering a variety of symptoms under one title...I am finding emotional plague is also like an umbrella term, and is non specific.
Jacque Fresco has nailed what emotional plague is to a tee...that is how I understood what emotional plague was all these years and only recently heard of that term from yourself.

On a second read through I may have misread your post there, and had a sudden attack of that ever present emotional plague it seems...its always difficult to convey what one really means in a post...much like texting on phones...so easy to be misconstrued, and is often one of the reasons I rarely post in debates these days, simply because it takes too much energy when if I was speaking with that person face to face there would be no such confusions...such is our way and its a wonder we as a species have stayed alive for so long...but then again we are as tough as we are stupid, and unlike OTHER animals, we can breed all times of the year in any habitat...nature it seems is finding it difficult to regulate us as a species maybe.

I meant the fight between medics saying they are stones and those that say they are not...has gone on for decades it seems. I use the term emotional plague to mean a very specific thing as defined by Reich. Crystal clear. Physiological illness stagnated into the emotions. You can always tell by a reaction. Your last post is almost plagued mate...hold the feeling back...we are on the same side. Yes it's true we are all plagued...I.e. Have embedded emotions in our musculature, but it is how we feel when we go about our lives that determine how things turn out. Almost all my chronic patients when we unravel the illness we find serious emotional plague behind the scenes...I.e. The emotions are part of the symptoms. Almost like people that smoke pot...they will argue into the night, missing the point completely.

I know now what you meant but you are also using that term again that is non-specific and also a term describing things you are failing to realize that you yourself have in abundance, just like we all do...My only error in my last post was stating incorrectly that I had a "sudden attack of emotional plague", as though it is something we can catch, when in fact it is something we all have built into us, much like a factory preset.

My going off into a little rant about the world is simply my opinion on how things are, and why it is often difficult to explain concepts using only the written word...but once you start throwing mildly insulting psychological terms around especially at someone with an opinion you may disagree with, you are fast becoming plagued yourself...I would suggest you not use the term emotional plague as obsessively as you do in most all your posts, then you will be a delight to communicate with again.

Try to be more specific in future instead of simply throwing that vague term around, and then issues can be better addressed without the need of multiple posts by each side, trying to cross that language interpretation barrier...Jacque Fresco talks about this often, and everyone would do well to study him as well as Reich.

As Fresco points out this language barrier exists between people from SAME cultures using the same language, just as much as from different cultures and languages, and that is present even in face to face communication, but it is compounded vastly when two people try to communicate more complex ideas by glorified text messages.

I will email you personally now a longer response instead of continuing this on an open public forum, because that is when ego becomes too involved - as is evidently happening on both sides.